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Lesco 15-0-15 or Fertilome 15-0-15 for Centipede?

39K views 40 replies 15 participants last post by  PamlicoLawnCare 
#1 ·
Lesco 15-0-15 or Fertilome 15-0-15 for Centipede?

The Lesco 15-0-15 is $31.78 for a 50 lb. bag at Home Depot but the Home Depot is an hour and fifteen minutes away in Greenville, NC.

The Fertilome 15-0-15 is $24.95 for a 20 lb. bag at my local farm supply store which is 10 minutes away.

I don't know what the Lesco costs at John Deere Landscapes...does anyone know?...It is also in Greenville.

I guess it would be worth the trip for a large quantity.

Is the Lesco that much better than the Fertilome?

Is there a cheaper alternative that I might could find locally?

Thank You,

Rod
Pamlico Lawn Care, LLC
Oriental, NC
 
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#3 ·
Check your potassium source. Should not be derived from muriate of potash. Too much chlorine there. Your grass will not tolerate it and die slowly. Your best would be potassium nitrate. Potassium sulfate is available in many of the Lesco products which is not quite so bad. It's hard to find at some stores. 14-2-14 Lesco number 098323. At least check the analysis for chlorine percentage before doing anything further. potassium nitrate is available in liquid soluble form and is product of choice for centipede. Write is need further info.
 
#4 ·
Check your potassium source. Should not be derived from muriate of potash. Too much chlorine there. Your grass will not tolerate it and die slowly. Your best would be potassium nitrate. Potassium sulfate is available in many of the Lesco products which is not quite so bad. It's hard to find at some stores. 14-2-14 Lesco number 098323. At least check the analysis for chlorine percentage before doing anything further. potassium nitrate is available in liquid soluble form and is product of choice for centipede. Write is need further info.
What is an acceptable chlorine %. My town only sells sur gro I think with 12% chlorine if I'm not mistaken. Not sure on the source. Also was thinking of using 16 4 8 for a slower release.
 
#5 ·
What is an acceptable chlorine %. My town only sells sur gro I think with 12% chlorine if I'm not mistaken. Not sure on the source. Also was thinking of using 16 4 8 for a slower release.
Before I'd put chlorine based potassium on centipede, I'd drive out-of-state to find a product. Where are you located? Southern Ag, in Hendersonville, NC will ship it to you. Check for a John Deere Landscape or CPS. Check out their website. To answer you question--None--I've seen many lawns just slowly die or what is called decline. Centipede is a continuing propagating grass but it will die from a bad diet. If you don't believe me, there's an expert that I can professor and expert that will back me up.
 
#6 ·
I would rather spray a mix consisting of 1 lb potassium nitrate, 2 lb 21-0-0 and soluble iron at label rates before spreading any of the above fertilizers on centipede. Those rate are per 1000 sq ft either applied in 5 or more gallons or applied concentrated and irrigated in right away. The common bagged turf fertilizers contain urea and potassium chloride. Neither of those two materials are any good for centipede.
 
#7 ·
You could also substitute solution grade sulfate of potash at the same rate, but note that it is harder to get into solution and 1 lb is soluble in 10 gallons not like the potassium nitrate where 1 lb will dissolve in 1 gallon.
 
#9 ·
Look for greens grade fertilizers. Usually they are high potassium and lower nitrogen. Be prepared to pay up to $60 a bag. This is why I spray everything. One bag of potassium nitrate will cover up to an acre of lawn. The low analysis fertilizers will need up to 5 bags per acre.
 
#10 ·
Look for greens grade fertilizers. Usually they are high potassium and lower nitrogen. Be prepared to pay up to $60 a bag. This is why I spray everything. One bag of potassium nitrate will cover up to an acre of lawn. The low analysis fertilizers will need up to 5 bags per acre.
Greens grade fertilizers are usually high in K and low in N? Are you sure?

'Greens Grade' simply means that the fert has a small particle size, so it is less disruptive to golf putting play than larger prill sizes. They SGN is usually near 100.

I've bought greens grade 0-0-62 and greens grade 46-0-0 and any analysis in between. But, I think everyone here is too caught up in the specific analysis, as if it means a darn. The specific analysis doesn't mean squat -- it's the amount of nutrient you're applying that actually means something.

You can use any analysis to get to your final application amount. The type of equipment you have, the size of the lawn, how much product you can carry, and the cost of the product (among others) are all factors that go into your analysis decision.

As for N source, it really doesn't matter. Centipedegrass generally performs better in slightly acidic soils (pH 5.0, give or take), but research from the University of Hawaii shows that N source doesn't impact centipedegrass performance. If your soils are less acidic than centipedegrass would prefer, you can use an acidifying fertilizer to help get things where they should be. But, saying that centipedegrass prefers one N source over another is an old wives' tale.
 
#11 ·
I'm not a chemical wizard by any stretch and maybe I missed something in the last few posts but wasn't the main source of concern...the source of K...avoiding potassium chloride(because of the chlorine.)
And, if you did need an acidifying "boost" along with your nutrient wouldn't potassium sulfate be that source of K. The sulfur content would acidify...would it not?

I'm just throwing things out there for you folks to respond to so I can learn...

...or does the potassium nitrate give you the potassium/nitrogen in the same product and that's what makes it the product of choice?...
 
#12 ·
Potassium sulfate is neutral in the soil. Potassium nitrate will raise pH slightly, however, I have not had a problem using it as the potassium source combined with ammonium sulfate. Ammonium sulfate will acidify many soils if used as the nitrogen source. The reason why prefer potassium nitrate is its high solubility and total absence of chlorine. My soils usually have too much to begin with. Why would I want to add more with every routine fertilization?
 
#13 ·
I have maybe 8or 10 lawns out of hundreds that have "some" Centipede in the existing lawn. I do not treat any Centipede lawns so to speak. My main concern is not killing what the customer has as "part" of their lawn.
I usually use a higher nitrogen lower potassium granular fertilizer at a very low rate and spot spray weeds with herbicides I know are safe for use in Centipede. Our soils are acidic here so that is generally not a big concern. With so little to treat, and in scattered patches like it is, I can't really justify a "special" program just for centipede.

It seems like(at least with what I deal with here) Centipede almost does as well with almost nothing done with/to it as it does with constant attention. That's been my experience with it anyway...
 
#14 ·
Lucky you. I do have a full centipede lawn. I am so thankful that I took over the maintenance from someone that did not fertilize at all. Wish he did not "mow" by scalping everything with string, but that is actually the standard of care here in Hawaii. The right fertilizer mix and a ban on scalping has made the lawn turn around in a surprisingly short amount of time.
 
#15 ·
We are at a major transition point here. I have 3 lawns in a row that all have a mixture of Bermuda, Zoysia, Centipede and St. Augustine in each. I deal with more St. Augustine than Centipede but still 90% of my lawns are Bermuda. 65 miles south of here 60% of the lawns are Centipede or St. Augustine.

The reason some of these lawns are patchwork quilts of turf types is because people will lose sections of St.Aug/Centipede due to the occasional winter where temps dipped to low. Then we'll have few winters with warm enough temps where it'll bounce back some.

Lucky, I don't think so. At times, I have to really be on my toes about what products are being used and when...on the same lawn.
 
#16 ·
Well, at least you are not under the gun to convert to all one type of grass. I am not either, but in most cases, it makes mowing, spraying and fertilizing much easier. That centipede lawn of mine is 10% bermuda. High mowing, acidification of the soil and Sethoxydim will be used to convert to 100% centipede.
 
#17 ·
Well, at least you are not under the gun to convert to all one type of grass. I am not either, but in most cases, it makes mowing, spraying and fertilizing much easier. That centipede lawn of mine is 10% bermuda. High mowing, acidification of the soil and Sethoxydim will be used to convert to 100% centipede.
I will investigate sethoxydim further. I've heard of it but never used it. My biggest request on conversion to one turf type is getting Bermuda out of Zoysia. Is sethoxydim something that could be used for this? I've been using a combination of Fusilade/Turflon Ester with mediocre results...
 
#18 ·
I have no problems getting Fusilade + Turflon to work. This might have something to do with mowing and irrigation though. Which is why I run from lawns that are not irrigated and there is no commitment to mowing them at the right height using the right mower. Having said that, I just went through 18 months where nothing worked. Can't expect a weed control program to work when it is clear and sunny for only a few days out of the month and those clear and sunny days are about 45-60 days apart.
 
#19 ·
You might try some granualar products from Lebanon. The right ones have potassium sulfate aka sulfate of potash. I've used these on centipeded with good results but they were kind of expensive on a large basis.

I've had Ewing mix me a custom blend. Ted, if your looking for a fert for centipede should have some on hand when they get it in.
 
#20 ·
You guys are going to have to fill me in on the negatives of KCl. I've never heard that KCl was a poor K source for cenitpedegrass. I spent a lot of time in school, a lot of time in the industry, and I've managed a lot of really good lookign centipedegrass lawns (using KCl sources) -- and I've never before heard that KCl sources are bad.

I've looked at unversity recommendations that recommend muriate of potash as a K source for centipedegrass. I've read peer reviewed research that shows that K source doesn't affect centipedegrass quality. I've used muriate of potash for years and never once had a problem.

What do you guys know that I don't? What are you seeing that I'm not?
 
#21 ·
Throwing KCl on centipede has caused me problems. It is related to type of soil and the existing chloride levels in that soil. I take what UH says about turfgrass with a grain of salt. Most of what is said is not research work. It is advice directed towards non professionals. There has not been a Turf Scientist at UH since Charles Murdoch. Jim Brosnan was here for about a year, then he left to UT. The closest thing to a Turf Scientist is the senior Weed Scientist.

What I do know is to be very mindful of what I apply to soils that are not only salt contaminated but hard to leach. I have also seen results contrary to what "universities" have been telling people about centipede fertilization once attention is paid to the source of N and K. No adverse effects have occurred on lawns fed 4-6 lb of N and an equal amount of K. No urea is used. All of the N is ammonium based except for the nitrates in potassium nitrate. What I consider a bad application on any variety of turf, not just centipede is one that forces a lot of soft surge growth.
 
#22 ·
If you're seeing Cl toxicity, you must be in the super arid desert portion of Hawaii. Cl isn't even in a problem in the mainland desert, where rainfall of less than 2 in/yr are common. If you think you are overloading on Cl, it is likely a leaching problem, where you have heavy soils and very little rainfall (<2 in/yr). In which case, this wouldn't be isolated to only centipedegrass, but prevalent on all turf species.

BTW, I know Chuck Murdoch very well -- he served on my committee for my MS degree. Chuck was great scientist. I've also known Jim Brosnan since his MS days at UMass. I wish I could say he was a scientist. Win some, lose some.

You puzzle me with your "no urea is used. All N is ammonium based ...." Urea converts to ammonium and CO2 very quickly after dissolution in water (hydrolysis reactions). You'll get more ammonium from urea than from any other fert app.

BTW, since your name is greendoctor, are we to assume you hold a doctoral degree? What did you study, and with whom? I would love to know you background.
 
#23 ·
As I have said before, soils here are in bad shape long before the incorrect materials are applied. A common construction practice is to build entire neighborhoods on top of a coral base. There is up to 12" of red clay put on top of it as "topsoil". What the coral does is contaminate the clay with salt and alkalinity. That clay is hard to leach. Chloride and salt toxicity happens even in areas getting 1+ inches of water from irrigation per week. Some of the salt and alkalinity are from the tap water used to irrigate. The coral base adds more and in windy weather there is no escaping the fine fog of salt from the Pacific Ocean. Inland deserts do not get salt spray 12 month out of the year. Leach the soil properly in a desert and the problem is fixed. Unless the subsoil is pure calcium carbonate and boron carbonate. I have heard of that situation. Grass does turn greener from rain because rain has fewer salts in it. You are right about most grasses having problems with salt. I find that zoysia is also sensitive. Centipede is normally ok because it is grown far inland away from the beaches. But throwing potassium chloride on it is not a good idea. It gets enough from the tap water used to irrigate and it does rain about 30" in those areas so people are not willing to supply the other 20". The soils there are red clay that hang on to everything applied to it. No sand or sandy loam. In many cases, the neighborhood is build on top of a coral fill. So what one would assume to be neutral or acidic and salt free is actually bad.

My preference for ammonium rather than urea stems from observing how the turf responds to each. I also know that most of the lawns I deal with need serious acidification as well. Urea dissociating into NH3 gas and CO2 explains why it does not work the same on soils with a pH of 7+. CO2 reacting with excessive calcium or magnesium forms alkaline carbonates. The NH3 is also here and gone quickly as well. Ammonium sulfate is one of the most acid forming nitrogen sources short of ammonium thiosulfate. On a soil known to be acid, my preferred nitrogen source is calcium nitrate, followed by urea. You see, I do not spread what sold as "turf fertilizer". Sure, I know there is greens grade 46-0-0 and 0-0-62. What I see sold as greens grade preblends locally contains potassium sulfate and is heavy on the ammonium for the reasons I mentioned above. Low cut bermuda has a limit on how much salt it can handle. Especially if it is a dirt fairway or pushup green. Discussions about which preblended granule is better, cheaper, etc are lost on me. I am applying according to the results of a soil test for that site. Therefore, unless it is prilled sulfur, gypsum, or dolomite, all of my nutrients are sprayed, not spread. Solutions are mixed to supply specific rates of N, P, K, S, Mg, Ca and micronutrients.

Not a doctorate. Maybe more like the old barbershop doctor/dentist in the old West. Just an undergraduate in horticulture. Rest of my schooling is from being in the industry for over 20 years or all of my adult life. By the time I was old enough to go to university, Charles Murdoch was long gone and Roy Nishimoto was retiring. That is what I meant by not having any Turf Scientists at UH. Jim was there after my time there was long past. Only person there I can relate to is Joe DeFrank. He teaches the undergraduate weed science class. To this day, we frequently talk about his research, and product trials. In spite of this poor education, I have not done badly for myself. I get grass greener even when bags of over the counter fertilizers or preblends have failed to do the job and some rather stubborn weed problems have been controlled without resorting to digging, tilling, fumigation, or RoundUp.

Which companies are you associated with? Or are you EPA?
 
#25 ·
Warm season grasses with their longer growing season, proximity to the ocean and need for higher fertilizer rates react differently. If I were to start maintaining cool season grasses, the hardest adjustment for me would be not feeding it like how warm season grasses have to be fed in a frost free climate. I am feeding at least 6 times a year at minimum, it is usually more like 10-12. If only applying fertilizer to an area maybe 2-4 times in a 12 month period, generous allowances can be made for chlorides. Especially in inland areas that do not have background salt contamination. Different grass species have varying levels of salt tolerance as well. Centipede grass stands out as being very intolerant of salt.
 
#26 ·
You're story is changing, green"doctor". First, you were claiming that there was something about Cl that caused centipedegrass to perform poorly. Now, you're blaming excess salinity and you've dropped the war against Cl only.

It looks like you've confused Cl and salinity. You can have excessive salinity with or without Cl. Cl by itself is not necessarily a problem.

Check the salt index of the fertilizers you're using. KCl does have a higher salt index than any other K source. But, ther story doesn't stop there. Available fert with urea and KCl has a lower salt index than the same analysis with ammonium sulfate and potassium nitrate.

So, maybe the conversation should have been about the salt index of different fertilizers if you're managing centipedegrass in excessively saline conditions, and not about chlorine. Am I being picky? I suppose so. But, I think that knowing why we do things seperates professionals from amateurs.
 
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