Micro rhizae inocculants

Discussion in 'Organic Lawn Care' started by upidstay, Apr 21, 2006.

  1. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 18,308

    Let me get one thing straight here. I applaud you and anyone else who makes any attempt at being organic. It most certainly is better than the conventional alternative. That being said, my original posts were not provocative in any way, it was you who came after me for posting a dissenting opinion on the goals of an organic program. So if your going to resort to personal insults then I guess the gloves come off.

    You can accuse me of being a left wing crackpot (FYI I have no political affiliations or interest in politics), but the "problem" is not JUST fertilizers and pesticides, it fundamentally is how we approach building landscapes. You also accuse me of not seeing the big picture (or the "truth"), but in fact I spent a considerable amount of time and money educating myself so I could see the big picture. One "truth" I do see here is your inability to grasp it.

    The solution to the "problem" is not simply replacing conventional inputs with organics. The whole concept and design of residential/commercial landscapes needs to be rethought. The only viable solution that I see to this fundamental problem with landscapes is to shift focus towards creating environmentally friendly sustainable landscapes. One approach is to consider our landscapes as habitats, not as a "status symbol", or something to fill up some open space, or an initially cheap way to cover bare soil (turf). Xeriscaping (if done properly) is one way to create a sustainable landscape.

    Guess what Gerry, the EPA has a site dedicated to creating sustainable landscapes, so don't take my word on it, unless you consider them left wing crackpots too.

    Environmental Protection Agency:

    GreenScapes Program

    And yet more left wing fanatics attempting "the old slight of hand and misdirection".

    NRCS (Natural Resources Conservation Service):

    Improving Urban Landscapes

    University of Minnesota:

    Sustainable Urban Landscape Information Series (SULIS)

    Oregon State University Extension Service:

    Plant Selection for Sustainable Landscapes

    Building Green:

    Natural Landscaping: Native Plants and Planting Strategies for Green Development

    What the heck, why not throw in a couple for habitats...

    National Wildlife Federation:

    Create a Certified Wildlife Habitat

    University of Maine:

    Principles for Creating a Backyard Wildlife Habitat

    State of Illinois:

    Creating Habitats and Homes For Illinois Wildlife

    The "agenda" here, if there is one, is an attempt to replace (to some degree) what we have destroyed in our infinite wisdom (or is that ignornace).

    What is the truth, your narrow minding version of it? Given many of your posts in this thread are cut and paste, it is difficult extracting your words from someone else's. Also given some of your "facts" are pulled from sites that DO have an agenda, I question them, as should everyone.

    Let us recap some of Gerry's indisputable facts/truths for everyone to see.

    whoops -> contradiction:

    Which is it? As I warned, be careful when speaking in absolutes.

    This is nothing short of laughable. It is obvious you need to review how soils are formed.

    Factors Of Soil Formation. A System of Quantitative Pedology

    Oh my, nice example of a list of unsubstantiated "facts" distributed by a company in the business of selling lawn maintenance equipment. And you speak of agenda's. :nono: You do you understand what a credible source is, right?

    BTW, nice work cut & paste commando. Gee, sure is easy to simply cut and paste someone else's words in order to give the illusion of intelligence. Here's another example of your cut & paste wizardry.

    Taken verbatim from The Soil Biology Primer - Chapter 7 Section Control Pests

    While you did provide a link to the home page of the primer, you did not indicate in any way you had quoted it. If your going to quote a source, at the VERY least you should give some indication of the quoted content (quotes, italics, bbcode quote) and a DIRECT link to the source content. Your indirect reference, which was presented in a way that has no direct correlation to the content you quoted, doesn't cut it. I wonder how many more of these exist in your posts?

    This is a "fact"? If I drive a 1000 pound lawn tractor on my lawn are the "fungal organisms" going to prevent soil compaction? Perhaps you need to review the laws of physics because your "fact" just violated them, that is, unless your maintaining that soils are incompressible.

    You know Gerry, there is ALOT more to a landscape than turf, and there are more factors involved in creating a healthy soil than just AACT and protein meals. In fact you have stated more than once that AACT and protein meals are all you need to build a healthy soil. What about the importance of spatial distribution of SOM?

    Correct, and with respect to soils, it is a shortcut to the preferred method.

    Another unsubstantiated "fact", not to mention the predominant use of compost teas is foliar disease control and secondarily as a soil drench. The "fact" of the matter is Gerry, there is no conclusive or replicable scientific evidence to support your claims.

    So how about we provide some real information on compost teas so the readers of this thread can make an informed decision, not one based on marketing hype. If you only choose to read a couple of these links, then the two from Washington State University would be my recommendation.

    Washington State University:

    Compost Tea: Miracle Cure or Marketing Gimmick?

    The Myth of Compost Tea Revisited

    National Organic Standards Board:

    Compost Tea Task Force - Final Report

    University of Vermont:

    Compost Tea To Suppress Plant Disease

    Ohio State University:

    Research Project Report for the Ohio Vegetable and Small Fruit Research and Development Program

    Oregon State University:

    OSU/Lane County Extension Service Compost Specialist Tea Trial

    Should I move on to some of your other "facts"? You throw around the terms "facts" and "truths", however I believe the general consensus among the scientific community is the dynamics of soil ecology/biology are not very well understood. Perhaps you know something they don't? If you want, I'll pick apart your statements to the point where the majority your "facts" will be called into question.

    I simply pointed out that based on your posts it would appear YOU have an agenda (eg. pushing a product) by coming back to the same topic over and over again like a broken record -> Turf, AACT, "protein" meals -> Turf, AACT, "protein" meals -> Turf, AACT, "protein" meals.

    And that would make you a hypocrite. How can you be an advocate of organic practices without also advocating sustainability? Do you realize how absurd a statement that is? So basically your like Al Gore, preaching about global warming while driving around in a Hummer, or in your case, preaching use of organics while promoting continued use of resource intensive, unsustainable landscapes.

    What is the real problem here Gerry? Is it use of environmentally damaging products, or landscape designs and industries that promote the use of those products? If the landscapes we build have no use for those products to begin with, why would there be any reason or need to produce them? Furthermore, where are the vast majority of those products used? Does TURF ring a bell!

    The fundamental problem is with continued construction and use of unsustainable landscapes. If you cannot see this you are truly blind.

    Some more links for those interested.

    NC State University:

    Sustainable Practices for Vegetable Production in the South

    University of California:

    Soil Fertility Management for Organic Crops

    Soil Management and Soil Quality for Organic Crops

    Statewide IPM Program, Agriculture and Natural Resources, University of California

    Environmental Protection Agency:

    EPA: Integrated Pest Management (IPM) Principles

    University of Vermont SERA-17:

    Referenced Publications From SERA-17

    Colorado State University:

    Xeriscaping: Creative Landscaping

    Organic Materials as Nitrogen Fertilizers

    Texas A&M University:

    Landscape Water Conservation...Xeriscape

    State of California:

    Coyote Creek Watershed Management Plan. Green Infrastructure Site Design Guidelines

    The following are articles/studies published in Applied Soil Ecology from Science Direct

    You need to go to Elsevier and navigate to the Science Direct Site using their link in order to gain guest access to their holdings. The below articles (full text with guest access) are from Applied Soil Ecology Volume 35, Issue 1 (pp. 1-260 (January 2007)) may be of interest to some. The guest access may or may not work, but you can still read the abstracts.

    Interaction among free-living N-fixing bacteria isolated from Drosera villosa var. villosa and AM fungi (Glomus clarum) in rice (Oryza sativa)

    Influence of organic and mineral amendments on microbial soil properties and processes

    Effects of compost addition on extra-radical growth of arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi in Acacia tortilis ssp. raddiana savanna in a pre-Saharan area

    Population dynamics of Trichoderma in fumigated and compost-amended soil and on strawberry roots
     
  2. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 18,308

    Your kidding right? Does the term bio-accumulation mean anything to you? I suppose you also support dumping toxic wastes into our water supplies, just as long as it is only "small amounts'.
     
  3. Gerry Miller

    Gerry Miller LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 504

    Talk about cut and pasting, good grief. Unfortunately, most people don't care about sustainable landscaping. It doesn't fit into the lifestyle they want or what is in demand.

    Once again I go back to what I have been talking about is what is the 'big picture' is home lawn care and the use of synthetic chemical fertilizers that homeowners over use, in particular pesticides, or rather over use of them. The millions of people who do have lawns and misuse chemicals is the big picture, not some idealistic landscape that few people own or even want. So the current problem, not some fantasy vision of sustainable landscaping, is to deal with the current problem that exists.

    All I have talked about is organic lawn care practices, nothing more. You choose to twist thing I say out of context to try and make some absurd point. Turf is not the problem. All the advantages I listed about turf you say is not the truth but part of some agenda of big business. Give me a break. If you don't like the facts, you try to change them.

    You keep twisting things I say to fit your rants, you call me a hypocrate???


    You have no clue to the advantages of using AACT, you think it's some kind of 'miracle cure'....where do you come up with this stuff??? You think it makes a difference to have a chipper in your yard for large branches that may fall???? What??? What kind of sense does that make???? None, like most of your post. Look where you get you information from on the AACT?? Someone who didn't have a clue how to make it properly and has been subject to ridicule for her lack of knowledge, much like yourself. There is plenty of data to back up the benefits of AACT. You just need to look at the right place, like Soilfoodweb.com Your posts and comments just show that you dont' know much about soil biology.
     
  4. Gerry Miller

    Gerry Miller LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 504

    So you would rather have millions of people die instead of the proper use of this chemical? Get real. More absurdities!
     
  5. tadhussey

    tadhussey LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 294

    I realized this thread was originally on micorrhizal inocculants, wow, it's really gone off to other topics.

    I was reading the post on AACT, and how it is unsubstantiated in laboratory tests. I hear this statement quite frequently, and it always leads back to Dr. Linda Chalker-Scott's article on compost tea. However, when you dig a little deeper, you will discover a couple of interesting facts.

    Yes, Dr. Scott did review a bunch of studies relating to compost tea. Have you taken the time to go and look at these studies? Are they really using AACT? The answer is definitively "NO!" Many did not measure DO levels consistently through the brew. They did not use appropriate inputs (ie. compost and nutrients). They did not provide adequate aeration within the brewer. So did their version of compost tea work in suppressing disease? Of course not! That's hardly a shocking find.

    Let's face it, everyone who works in this industry has an agenda. These "university studies" need funding and their research money has to come from somewhere. Dr. Chalker-Scott has a long standing academic feud with Dr. Ingham. Both can produce data to support their claims. Sometimes you have to look at more than just the numbers they throw at you or the fancy letters after their names.

    I agree that there is not enough scientific literature out there regarding compost tea. There are a large number of successful field trials though, and people like Gerry who have learned about the soil food web and seen wonderful results in their own yards. There are currently a good study being put together by I believe the University of Maryland that should be published in the next year or so.

    As for published articles supporting the use of microbes in disease suppression or remediation, I will be including them in my next post (this one was too long).

    ~Tad
     
  6. tadhussey

    tadhussey LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 294

    I realize not all of these are published studies, but they all relate to the topics we have been discussing and are in support of the use of beneficial microbes.

    References:

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    Abbasi, P.A., Al-Dahmani, J., Sahin, H.A., Hoitink, A.J. And Miller, S.A. (2002). Effect of compost amendments on disease severity and yield of tomato in conventional and organic production sysems. Plant Disease. 86:156-161.

    Albiach, R., Canet, R., Pomares, F. and Ingelmo, F. (2000). Microbial biomass content and enzymatic activities after application of organic amendments to a horticultural soil. Bioresource Technology. 75:43-48.

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  7. tadhussey

    tadhussey LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 294

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  8. Gerry Miller

    Gerry Miller LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 504

  9. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 18,308

    Tad, I could expand that list almost indefinitely. What is your point in posting it? Do you want to see who can fill up the most pages with journal publication listings? I just did a search on the key word "compost" in the AGRICOLA database and got 4581 hits, should I post them?

    Lets not mention none of references you posted appear to have anything to do with compost teas. Now they do have something to do with compost (66 occurrences in the list), but then Gerry has already established his position on compost (eg. expensive, labor intensive, and not needed to build a healthy soil).

    The links I posted are to documents you can read, and I spent a good deal off time chasing them down. The articles you posted probably all require either a subscription to the journal, or the article to be purchased separately, and took you all of 2 minutes to post.

    Furthermore, have I stated or inferred anywhere that microbes do not play an important role in soil ecology? I also never stated that compost teas are not beneficial, I merely pointed out the inaccuracies in Gerry's supposed "facts". You also need to review the other compost tea studies because their findings are also inconclusive.

    Review all the credible data available to you before you make a decision on how best to manage your property. Regardless of what Gerry wants everyone to believe, there is no such thing as the "one solution fits all scenarios" when your talking about biological systems.

    More "credible facts" from the cut and paste commando. Your hypocrisy is boundless.
    Gee Gerry, why is it not OK to use pesticides in this country, but OK in others?

    FYI, there are better alternatives to controlling malaria outbreaks than DDT.

    http://www.malariasite.com/malaria/mosquito_control.htm

    http://ipmworld.umn.edu/chapters/curtiscf.htm

    http://www.cdc.gov/malaria/control_prevention/vector_control.htm

    http://www.malaria.org/howcontrolled.html

    Gerry, your ignorance is astounding. Talk about misdirection you back peddling ----.
     
  10. tadhussey

    tadhussey LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 294

    Kiril,

    I have done a lot of research on compost teas, and have read many many articles both in support and against their efficacy. What I've found is that the data refuting the beneficial properties of compost tea all relates to studies where the researchers used poorly made tea. Either they did not use adequate controls or methodology, or they did not look at the biology in the tea before applying it.

    Dr. Chalker-Scott's article does not take this into account. All she did was compile all the published studies and base her results on that. If she had done a little more work in her research, her finding might have differed considerably.

    As for the list I posted. I received those articles directly from Soil Food Web, and specifically stated that they did not all relate to compost tea. I said they related to microbial remediations and the use of beneficial biology (whether through compost, specific microbes, or AACT). My point in posting the list was to show you that there is other data out there that supports the use of biology in gardening and that data is just that.....data.

    As for the "one solution fits all" comment. Well, that why you use AACT. To introduce a high diversity of beneficial organisms into your soil. This allows the plant to choose (based on the exudates it puts out), what the most beneficial organisms will be for it to be successful. These organisms then occupy the infections sites, both on the leaf suface and in the rhizosphere, and outcompete the pathogens for that space.

    Now is AACT the only way to get the biology out there if it is currently lacking? No, but it is the easiest way.

    How do I know it works? Well, I have been around the industry for over 5 years (my father was a pioneer in developing and inventing effective brewers). I look at my AACT under a microscope to determine diversity and quality of the tea, and we have spent thousands of dollars in testing with soil labs in the process of discovering how to make AACT correctly. When made correctly and applied, the results are amazing. We've had both personal success in combating foliar and soil diseases, and have gotten excellent feedback from a variety of sources ranging from giant pumpkin growers, commercial landscapers, organic vineyards, etc....

    I feel like I have reviewed the credible data out there, and have also done a chunk of research on the subject myself. If I'm missing something, please point it out to me. I have yet to read a credible study discounting compost tea.

    ~Tad
     

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