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Micro rhizae inocculants

Discussion in 'Organic Lawn Care' started by upidstay, Apr 21, 2006.

  1. Gerry Miller

    Gerry Miller LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 504

    :hammerhead: Mr. Greenjeans, you've got it right! Clearly, most of these people have no clue about soil biology. Anyone who can ignore the soil foodweb and the use of AACT is a clear indication that they are living in the past, using information that is at least 10 - 15 old and have not evolved to what is current. The links they have provided is prove enough.
     
  2. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 18,298

    Tad,

    I'm only posting what information is out there that is the most likely to be unbiased. I didn't do these trials, I didn't write the reports, I didn't mix the brews.

    I stress NONE of these studies are scientifically rigorous, nor are they peer reviewed, nor ar they published in a journal.

    I have no agenda here (eg. I don't not sell a product), I am just posting links to trials/experiments that I can find, nothing more, nothing less.

    Second, at least two of these trials sent their tea to soilfoodweb for testing.

    How about providing links to the peer reviewed journal studies that have shown conclusive evidence that compost teas work under the experimental conditions of the study.

    You need to rethink your comment because you have yet to produce one study to support your argument.

    Just to be clear, my position is composts teas may or may not work, it is a coin toss at this point.

    BTW Tad, since you stress the importance of the proper biology in the tea, I have problems with dollar spot in my lawn, tell me the EXACT biology I need in my compost tea to eliminate it.
     
  3. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 18,298

    :laugh: You just spot on described Gerry. :clapping:
     
  4. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 18,298

    You claimed I have no credibility, so I gave you my qualifications, how is that bragging? BTW, I graduated from University of California-Davis not clown school and worked out of the soil science department.

    I never claimed ACT doesn't work, I did claim there is no conclusive evidence out there that shows it does work.

    Does that mean I won't use it, absolutely not. I however DOES mean that I'm not going to fool myself into thinking that all the B.S. claims many of these manufacturers websites make are true. It's time for you guys to get real, stop with the opinionated garbage and provide some unbiased sources of information.
     
  5. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 18,298

    Here's a couple more links to compost tea trials for you to digest.

    This published study applies to greenhouse production of cucumbers, and did have some positive results depending on how the tea was produced.

    Compost Tea as a Container Medium Drench for Suppressing Seedling Damping-Off Caused by Pythium ultimum

    Another published study on geraniums, inconclusive results

    Variability Associated with Suppression of Gray Mold (Botrytis cinerea)
    on Geranium by Foliar Applications of Nonaerated and Aerated Compost Teas


    Another project on pumpkins, inconclusive results

    Aerated compost tea and other alternative treatments for disease control in pumpkins
     
  6. greenjeans_il

    greenjeans_il LawnSite Member
    Posts: 19

    Kiril,
    It's not that your info doesn't hold some light and that it wouldn't make for good discussion; it's just that you're so damn irritating. Not because you're right about any of it but because you're so condescending. Doesn't someone with your credentials have anything better to do than to come here and talk in circles? Every other post contradicts previous ones. At least Gerry sticks to an issue and doesn't sway one way or the other.

    In one post you'll put up links saying ACT is crap science; then in the next post "Oh, well I never said it." No, you didn't say it but you certainly implied it in a desperate attempt to discredit someone else. Stop being such a jerk.

    Greenjeans
     
  7. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 18,298

    If your going to make statements like the above, please provide a quote to the content where I did as you claim, implied or not. I would also request you reread Gerry's posts directed at me because they are more than inflammatory, and in some cases, downright offensive.

    As I said before, and will say again, I simply provided links to discussion and studies on compost tea that I could find and link to, whether they be negative, positive, or neutral with respect to results. Just because I posted links to documents that Tad and Gerry say are anti-ACT does not imply that I am against ACT.

    Let me remind you that this whole discussion started because I feel an organic program is only one part of creating a sustainable landscape. Gerry maintains it is not. From that point, it degraded quickly, and the topic has changed several times due to accusations directed toward myself that were unfounded.

    Finally, this is a forum where people should be able to get unbiased, objective information. I have done my best to provide links to sources that meet that criteria.
     
  8. greenjeans_il

    greenjeans_il LawnSite Member
    Posts: 19

    Kiril,
    I'm not going back to find it or to re-read through 7 pages of this dribble; not worth my time. I read it once and it gave me a headache. Anyone that's gotten this far in the conversation has definitely received what you've implied.

    I'd like to see where "...an organic program is only one part of creating a sustainable landscape. Gerry maintains it is not." you collected that info. I believe Gerry's position is that an organic program need not be sustainable in order to be considered organic. You implied, or said, or somehow have led me to believe at this point in the conversation; that a lawn care program needs to be sustainable in order to be organic. My position, and that of many others, is that is not the case.

    Simply abstaining from synthesized chemical inputs to address the needs of the plant is considered organic to many. Others hold the position that all inputs should merely address the soil and bunk on the plants. Others hold the position that if you're using a gasoline powered mower to trim the turf you're a scab on the face of organics everywhere.

    I'm of the thought process that if you're attempting to make a better environment and a healthier soil while decreasing inputs and maintenance that you're of the organic mindset and started down the right path.

    You insist this forum should hold unbiased information then you should cease to give your opinion on what you consider to be organic. You should also cease to provide links that, in your opinion, are un-biased. The links you provided I'm certain were read prior to posting and don't think we're so naive as to believe that you didn't omit some results which may have been contrary to your argument.

    Incidentally, I KNOW Gerry; I don't mean I occasionally run across him on the forums or have heard of him, I mean I've been to his house, worked in his yard, and seen the results of his efforts and knowledge. Gerry does not attack others unless provoked. You people on this forum have intentionally banded together with the intention of condescending one whom you thought inferior to yourselves. So if he offended you; you had it coming. I respect that he's not afraid of the letter's behind your name or the piece of paper on your wall. Those things don't earn you respect in the real world; only amongst your study chums and we're not those people. We're the people that show respect to those that give it and I'm afraid you've failed to do that here. Gerry, I respect; Tad, I respect; Dr. Elaine Ingham, I respect; you, I'm not seeing you earning much.

    Greenjeans

    P.S. None that was cut and paste with the exception of your quote, of which I give due credit.
     
  9. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 18,298

    I think it is fair to say that the fundamental purpose of the organic approach, be it farming or landscapes, is to create a sustainable system. As I pointed out, how can you advocate one without advocated the other.

    This is what I said.

    A well written approach to that end.

    Ecologically Sound Lawn Care for the Pacific Northwest

    I believe I said the same thing.

    The majority of links I did not read, how much free time do you think I have? The exception would be the compost tea links, which I did read in whole or part with the time I had available. I did not filter these other than making sure they came from a credible source, regardless of the findings in the study. If you don't believe me then do your own search.

    If you read the compost tea trials/studies you would see there are a variety of results, ranging from positive to negative and everything in between. I'm curious how that constitutes omitting results contrary to my argument?

    Here are some more studies I have found.

    2003 research report on grapes in greenhouse/lab, some positive results under controlled conditions, generally inconclusive.

    Suppression of grapevine diseases with compost tea in the greenhouse


    1999 Report on various fresh market vegetables, results inconclusive.

    Effectiveness of Compost Extracts as Disease Suppressants in Fresh Market Crops In BC.


    2006 published study, positive results observed under controlled conditions, generally inconclusive.

    Inhibition of the apple scab pathogen Venturia inaequalis and the grapewine downy mildew pathogen Plasmopara viticola by extracts of green waste compost


    2007 published study on Telfairia occidentalis (fluted pumpkin), variable positive results found with respect to the control.

    The Use of Compost Extract as Foliar Spray Nutrient Source and Botanical Insecticide in Telfairia occidentalis


    2006 A rather large study contaning multiple objectives. Source

    Effects of composting manures and other organic wastes on soil processes and pest and disease interactions

    A review of the effects of uncomposted materials, composts and manures on soil health and quality, soil fertility, crop development and nutrition

    A review of the effects of uncomposted materials, composts, manures and compost extracts on beneficial microorganisms, pest and disease incidence and severity in agricultural and horticultural crops

    A review of the effects of different composting processes on chemical and
    biological parameters in the finished compost or compost extract


    Documentation of the standards, regulations and legislation relevant to recycling, compost and manure preparation and application and a review of common UK practices relating to the preparation and application of uncomposted materials, manures, composts and compost extracts

    Glossary


    Read the available studies and you will find the overwhelming majority of them are inconclusive, and almost all state additional research needs to be conducted.

    What is my argument/position?

    1) Creating a sustainable system is the desired goal of any organic program.

    2) While compost teas have a lot of potential, there is still much research that needs to be done in order to better understand how they can be used as an alternative to conventional pesticides.

    Perhaps I'm way off base here, but I believe Dr. Ingham and those in the field would agree with the above two statements.
     
  10. Gerry Miller

    Gerry Miller LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 504

    I have posted not once but twice, comment made by the leading authority on compost teas, Dr. Elaine Ingham, and twice you chose not to respond to her post and comments. Why is that? Difficulty in dealing with the facts?

    You keep posting this garbage that there is no evidence to the effectiveness of compost teas. That just isn't true, in fact that's another one of your lies. Soil Foodweb, among other labs, have, in fact, the data that supports the positive results from using AACT. But if you choose to only look at flawed data by people who have either never made AACT or made it incorrectly. Where is the credibility in that? But these links you provide would only be good for one thing, that would be to put in a compost pile because it's mostly manure!

    Like I have posted before, Dr. Ingham is know worldwide, is in demand for her expertise, besides being the leading authority on the subject. I'll take her views on AACT before any comments you make on the subject. She knows what she is doing, where you certainly don't based on your posts.

    Then I read your current post and amazed at all your back peddling and flip-flopping. No credibility at all!

    Let's see you try and twist this one around.
     

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