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MP Rotator vs Single Stream Rotor

58K views 137 replies 18 participants last post by  Mike Leary 
#1 ·
What do you guys think?

In my experince many customers end up running the MPR so much longer that the water savings by the design goes null. Seems like I also get more coverage complaints on the MPR's. I space the 3000's @ 25', 2000 @ 17' (although they are pretty good at 20), and I do not use the 1000's bc they dont work that great.

Also if the customer does not keep the grass cut, the grass blades KILL the MPR streams while the single stream seems to perform OK in long grass. Although the grass should be cut to keep it under the riser hight, we all know the "I mow once every 3 weeks/month customer." Then they wonder why the grass is soooo grean by the sprinkler head, and dead out in the yard.

All this being said, the MPR definitly has advantages. If the customer cuts the grass and understands the concept, they will have much more uniformly green grass with the MPR.

I always try to gauge the home owner before I suggest one or the other.
 
#27 ·
Kiril, that's not true. The law says that overspray should be minimized, not eliminated. From 344.63(g) of the code (http://www.tceq.state.tx.us/assets/...rrigation/forms_li/rulesforregguid_063008.pdf) -

"(g) Irrigation systems shall not spray water over surfaces made of concrete, asphalt, brick, wood, stones set with mortar, or any other impervious material, such as, but not limited to, walls, fences, sidewalks, streets, etc."

This says we can't spray over it, not that we can't touch it. Enforcement of "no water allowed to touch hard surfaces" is overzealous interpretation and enforcement by the inspector. I've clarified this with TCEQ on more than one occasion and the intent of that paragraph is to prevent the systems where rotors are intentionally spraying over sidewalks, etc., not to stop any edge overspray.
 
#28 ·
Kiril, that's not true. The law says that overspray should be minimized, not eliminated. From 344.63(g) of the code (http://www.tceq.state.tx.us/assets/...rrigation/forms_li/rulesforregguid_063008.pdf) -

"(g) Irrigation systems shall not spray water over surfaces made of concrete, asphalt, brick, wood, stones set with mortar, or any other impervious material, such as, but not limited to, walls, fences, sidewalks, streets, etc."

This says we can't spray over it, not that we can't touch it. Enforcement of "no water allowed to touch hard surfaces" is overzealous interpretation and enforcement by the inspector. I've clarified this with TCEQ on more than one occasion and the intent of that paragraph is to prevent the systems where rotors are intentionally spraying over sidewalks, etc., not to stop any edge overspray.
Tell that to TXI ... he's the one who said not a single drop of water can get on hardscapes or buildings in order to pass inspection.
 
#29 ·
Again .... don't care. I have audit numbers sitting in front of me on a MPR system and a PGP system, and guess what ..... it is taking twice as long to put down the same amount of water for the PGP system than the MPR system. So you can say what you want, and make all the claims you want, but the numbers don't lie.
That's for that system the way it's nozzled. That doesn't mean that will always be the case, I promise you I can build a PGP zone that will put down water at 2x the rate of the MPR also.

At any rate, I'm pretty sure that when the manu's say that they use 1/3 less water, they mean compared to sprays, not rotors. MPRs are usually used in place of sprays and they are more efficient than sprays but also do require longer run times than sprays (about 2 - 3 times as long). Any place a traditional rotor can be used, it really should be.
 
#30 ·
That's for that system the way it's nozzled. That doesn't mean that will always be the case, I promise you I can build a PGP zone that will put down water at 2x the rate of the MPR also.
No one said you couldn't with a honking big nozzle, but then you also wouldn't be attempting to water the same area with MPR's .... at least I hope you wouldn't.

The point is, if you are comparing a single stream rotor to a MPR in a layout/design where they can be interchanged, most (not all) nozzles for the single stream rotor will have a PR lower than the MPR. No one in their right mind is going to design a system with MPR's when long range rotors would be more appropriate and economical .... therefore comparing high output rotor nozzles to the MPR is a pointless exercise.

At any rate, I'm pretty sure that when the manu's say that they use 1/3 less water, they mean compared to sprays, not rotors. MPRs are usually used in place of sprays and they are more efficient than sprays but also do require longer run times than sprays (about 2 - 3 times as long). Any place a traditional rotor can be used, it really should be.
Now that is true (see bold).
 
#31 ·
Tell that to TXI ... he's the one who said not a single drop of water can get on hardscapes or buildings in order to pass inspection.
No I said you never know what inspector your going to get, I do install per the most strict inspectors standards. And this inspecter will fail you for one drop.

Honestly though, if you really believe some of this stuff you type you need to get back out in the field for some real world experience. 3-4 people have confirmed that you must run MPRs longer to get a good result, yet you still are standing on your soap box.

It is nothing personal, I read some of the stuff you write and learn from it. I agree that an MPR 3000 will get a better matched pattern than a rotor with a 2 nozzle in a CONTROLLED enviroment. For some reason when they get in the ground they do not seem to be cutting the mustard.

Mainly the claim that they do better in the wind than a rotor is what I can't believe. They may not be misting, but they dont push through the wind like a rotor.
 
#32 · (Edited by Moderator)
Have you or TXI tried the low angle rotor nozzles? I think they do a better job in wind that any nozzle that is spraying 25' plus. They also do a nice job picking up the edges.
Just be curious to hear what you guys think. The LA comes standard on the RB 5000 but you need to request them for the pgp.

I notice RB has added a new rotor 5500 that they say can go down to 17'.
Yes I do use the LA nozzles. In fact I got a chance to use them both on different zones on a temp system. It was pretty cool because I got to see the spray patterns emerge on dry dirt.

From what I saw the LA nozzle way out preformed the standard. Also the pressure was un-real off a fire hydrent 130+ and the low angle did not mist near as bad.

I think I have a pic somewhere.

This zone we put one LA nozzle (front left in pic) and the rest were standard. You can see the huge difference in spray with the sun coming through.

Water Sky Tree Natural landscape Grass
 
#33 ·
No I said you never know what inspector your going to get, I do install per the most strict inspectors standards. And this inspecter will fail you for one drop.
Yea .... OK Bud.

Honestly though, if you really believe some of this stuff you type you need to get back out in the field for some real world experience. 3-4 people have confirmed that you must run MPRs longer to get a good result, yet you still are standing on your soap box.
Longer than what .... sprays? They would be right .... you do need to run them longer than sprays .... but that is not the case with most rotor nozzles that would be using in place of the MPR. However, I will return the insult and say if you believe some of the stuff you write, then like Pete, you have no business managing or designing irrigation.

It is nothing personal, I read some of the stuff you write and learn from it.
You started this crap right from the first response to my first post. My response to this is, don't dish it out unless you are prepared to get it in return.

I agree that an MPR 3000 will get a better matched pattern than a rotor with a 2 nozzle in a CONTROLLED enviroment. For some reason when they get in the ground they do not seem to be cutting the mustard.
And of course you have audit data to back this up?

Mainly the claim that they do better in the wind than a rotor is what I can't believe. They may not be misting, but they dont push through the wind like a rotor.
Again .... do you have field data to back this up?

You have made claims here about other people's qualifications and experience, then present feelings and hunches as if they are fact. Is this how a professional should act on a public forum .... or at all?

My comments here are backed by considerable experience with these products (despite your lame attempts to suggest otherwise) and by georeferenced catch can and soil moisture data ..... not hunches, feelings and supposition.
 
#34 ·
Maybe mpr's should stay on the west coast. Mine on the east coast need a much longer run time......And, as I sold the homeowner on the water savings.........
Long story short ....if you cant afford the water to run irrigation......you cant afford irrigation........He we are. Irrigation installers, and service people who see it year round and a different way. I have had my spell of mprs come through here, some on 2hp pump systems, (dumb for many reasons) on city systems, who are now runnning longer run times (1.5 hours), and sometimes the work great in that one spot thats hard to reach.....
AS the op asked.......I will not look at them as an answer after seeing there performance in this dry climate we're having. I say if you got the water to put down.....throw it on...
 
#35 ·
No winning here... is there a block feature on this site?

Kiril, from what I have read at one point or another you have insulted everyone on this site.

I base my findings on this:

When I install rotors, I do not get complaints.When I install MPR's, almost without fail I get complaints. (This is real world data, not an aluminum can) When a product starts effecting my bottom line it's toast.

Also a few of the people I install for, including 2 Landscape Arch's do not allow MPR's on site.
 
#36 ·
Maybe mpr's should stay on the west coast. Mine on the east coast need a much longer run time......And, as I sold the homeowner on the water savings.........
I'm sorry .... does water flow differently on the East coast? FYI RLP .... I live in an area that gets NO rain for the better part of 6-7 months, and MPR's perform exceptionally well. Once again, no nozzle is going to make design flaws magically disappear ... not even the MPR.

Long story short ....if you cant afford the water to run irrigation......you cant afford irrigation........He we are. Irrigation installers, and service people who see it year round and a different way. I have had my spell of mprs come through here, some on 2hp pump systems, (dumb for many reasons) on city systems, who are now runnning longer run times (1.5 hours), and sometimes the work great in that one spot thats hard to reach.....
AS the op asked.......I will not look at them as an answer after seeing there performance in this dry climate we're having. I say if you got the water to put down.....throw it on...
Now that is smart. Drought conditions ..... and throw on the water. WTF is wrong with people in this industry?
 
#39 ·
No winning here
And there won't be until you start acting like a professional.

When I install rotors, I do not get complaints.When I install MPR's, almost without fail I get complaints. (This is real world data, not an aluminum can) When a product starts effecting my bottom line it's toast.
Then you know what TXI .... you aren't using the product correctly and/or designing correctly. Since apparently you are incapable of using this product correctly, or manage systems that use this product, then you are right, you should not use them.

Also a few of the people I install for, including 2 Landscape Arch's do not allow MPR's on site.
Good for them. You started a thread looking for peoples thoughts on the MPR vs. the rotor ..... I gave mine .... and got attacked by you for the trouble. So by all means .... spare us all and put me on ignore.
 
#40 ·
Yeah you can ignore people. Dana put Kiril on ignore. I've done it before but I figure if I keep him tied up we get rational discussions elsewhere. You being from Texas though makes you a target for his vitriol.
Dana likes to dish it out, but can't handle it when he gets it in return.

Pete, the only rational discussion with you, and with most people from TX, is the one where you do all the talking and no one questions anything you say. Apparently if you are from TX ... your word is gospel. :rolleyes:
 
#41 ·
I'm sorry .... does water flow differently on the East coast? FYI RLP .... I live in an area that gets NO rain for the better part of 6-7 months, and MPR's perform exceptionally well. Once again, no nozzle is going to make design flaws magically disappear ... not even the MPR.

Now that is smart. Drought conditions ..... and throw on the water. WTF is wrong with people in this industry?
We live in the real world not la-la land like you. I could say a whole lot more but in the end that is all that it really comes down to.
 
#43 ·
I'm sorry .... does water flow differently on the East coast? FYI RLP .... I live in an area that gets NO rain for the better part of 6-7 months, and MPR's perform exceptionally well. Once again, no nozzle is going to make design flaws magically disappear ... not even the MPR.

Now that is smart. Drought conditions ..... and throw on the water. WTF is wrong with people in this industry?
read that fact that I pull water from a lake..........so I perfer to put out as much as terrain allows. 2 hp pump 2" mainline. 10 heads a zone 20 gpm at 60 psi....sorry for the confusion.....I hope this does not affect you, as the reservoir I pull water from is the power plant that sells Ca electric every weekend so u can keep cool........
 
#44 ·
We live in the real world not la-la land like you. I could say a whole lot more but in the end that is all that it really comes down to.
In the real world water conservation is a big concern, and if managing sites to conserve water resources is la la land, then I live right in the middle of it. But heh .... if people here don't give a damn about proper irrigation design and management, and would rather act like a bunch of f'n amateurs then so be it.
 
#45 ·
read that fact that I pull water from a lake..........so I perfer to put out as much as terrain allows. 2 hp pump 2" mainline. 10 heads a zone 20 gpm at 60 psi....sorry for the confusion.....I hope this does not affect you, as the reservoir I pull water from is the power plant that sells Ca electric every weekend so u can keep cool........
And you are right ... MPR's shouldn't be used in potentially dirty water scenario's without filtration. That said ... how does that impact their performance using them with clean water or proper filtration? Once again we come down to knowing how to use products correctly. Are you going to push lake water through a drip line without filtration .... no ... so why would you attempt to do so with the MPR or any other small orifice nozzle?
 
#47 ·
We live in the real world not la-la land like you. I could say a whole lot more but in the end that is all that it really comes down to.
The bottom line is we need green grass, turf, whatever you wanna call it. There's people on this forum that think what's good here, is great there! I have been there, and now, am trying this. I know what works in my climate and if that means a single stream putting out water and overspraying into the street.........oh well... I have no complaints of spraying Smith Mountain Lake water on the streets, docks, walkways, hardscapes......cause there grass is green........if you must conserve...than do it. But dont tell another irrigator how charts work when you dont know the area. When a job plan is given to me....I bid after I see and visit job...Paper and irrigation are two different birds..........I am planning on going out for a three day swordfishing trip and would love kiril to pm me to come.......go Hokies!
 
#48 ·
The bottom line is we need green grass, turf, whatever you wanna call it.
Yea ... so just water the f'n shiit out of it .... because water is cheap and plentiful and no irrigator really gives a damn about managing soils or plants properly ... let alone irrigation! :rolleyes:

There's people on this forum that think what's good here, is great there! I have been there, and now, am trying this. I know what works in my climate and if that means a single stream putting out water and overspraying into the street.........oh well... I have no complaints of spraying Smith Mountain Lake water on the streets, docks, walkways, hardscapes......cause there grass is green........if you must conserve...than do it. But dont tell another irrigator how charts work when you dont know the area. When a job plan is given to me....I bid after I see and visit job...Paper and irrigation are two different birds..........I am planning on going out for a three day swordfishing trip and would love kiril to pm me to come.......go Hokies!
Funny .... I have lived in NC ... but I guess I don't know the area, and for some reason water that comes out of a nozzle in NC is different than water that comes out of a nozzle in CA. :hammerhead:
 
#49 ·
Gee, I just stumbled on this site, are you guys irri pros? If you are, then you should know to use the MP or like for plantings and let sprays and/or medium-throw rotors do it for turf.
Most succinct post on this forum all week. I'm going to put that in my irrigation rules to live by memory bank Mike.
 
#50 ·
Yea ... so just water the f'n shiit out of it .... because water is cheap and no irrigator cares about managing soils or plants properly. :rolleyes:

Funny .... I have lived in NC ... but I guess I don't know the area, and for some reason water that comes out of a nozzle in NC is different than water that comes out of a nozzle in CA. :hammerhead:
Wow.... You are just an arrogant piece of toro........
 
#51 ·
Wow.... You are just an arrogant piece of toro........
Funny how people like to call me arrogant, yet their behavior is equally if not more arrogant than mine. Yup ... crucify me for expecting higher standards in this industry and for defending myself against the relentless attacks against my character, professionalism, and knowledge.

Bravo RLP .... :clapping:
 
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