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My Seeding Plan Massachusetts Opinions Needed

Discussion in 'Turf Renovation' started by DieselMDX, Apr 30, 2013.

  1. maynardGkeynes

    maynardGkeynes LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 409

    Bit of a straw man there -- no one is talking about maintaining residential/commercial at sports turf level. The Seattle article is saying how clients should view clover as attractive -- sorry, not on my watch. Other point is this -- the acreage of turf vs. other AG acreage is only part of the story. The other part is how intensively each is cultivated/irrigated/treated. I would be surprised if the amount of chemicals, fert, herbicides etc used by the entire lawn care industry is more than a small fraction of that used by commercial agriculture. Could be wrong about that, and will check. Irrigation, where homeowners waste way too much water, is an issue however. Like I say, I'm all for the environment, and respecting the land god gave us, but I think the lawn care industry is an easy target, because we don't have the lobbying clout etc etc that Big Ag does. However, before they pass more laws making it harder for us to have happy customers, I'd appreciate them taking on Big AG first.
     
  2. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 18,298

    Hardly a straw man. HC is recommending cool season grass be fertilized throughout the summer ... not unlike how sports turf would be managed.

    Where does it say that .... here?

    2) Establish tolerance thresholds

    With weeds this is mainly subjective, based on lawn appearance.
    Accepting some broadleaf plants like daisies and clover in the lawn will save a lot of work and pesticide
    exposure, and you may find them quite attractive with a slight aesthetic shift. As a nitrogen fixer, clover
    even improves soil fertility. On the other hand, if certain weeds are unacceptable (like dandelions, for
    instance), controlling them by spot-weeding at a fairly low threshold may make for the least work in the
    long run, by avoiding seed spread.


    That isn't really what it is saying, now is it Maynard?

    Beyond that, do you need to keep your lawns 100%, or 99.99999% weed free? Is that not the same management intensity as sports turf? If not, please explain how it isn't.

    Fact of the matter is, that particular white paper is one of the most extensively referenced papers on general turf management I have seen to date and the recommendations in it are sound.

    Here's another part of the story. How much Ag borders hardscapes? Are there laws/requirements for Ag to mitigate/prevent pollution, or are they allowed to do whatever they want?

    You could be, and you should, preferably before posting.

    Another part of the story, and only homeowners? How much pollution is generated as a result of excessive and/or unneeded applications of fertilizer, pesticides and irrigation water? Do these poor management practices typically occur in Ag?

    Let's take HC's suggestions as an example. How much of the recommended fertilizers and pesticides in that sandy soil would leach out of the root zone and into the water table at the example PR, ET and AWC I presented using HC's suggested run times and frequencies?

    I have posted the bare bones formulas for determining appropriate irrigation intervals and amounts .... you know what I got in return? Ridiculed and dismissed by both homeowners and professionals alike. So tell me, if people aren't going to take the necessary steps to manage irrigation correctly, why would they do it for ferts & pesticides? One need go no further than this site to see countless examples of this irresponsibility, yet you think the lawn care industry is being targeted unfairly .... why?

    The reason the lawn care industry is a target is because most homeowners and LCO's don't use water, fertilizers and pesticides intelligently or responsibly. Further, why do you keep inferring that Ag is unregulated?
     
  3. maynardGkeynes

    maynardGkeynes LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 409

    @ Kiril: According the the EPA (chart below), home and lawn combined account for only about 9% of total pesticide/herbicide use, vs. 80% by AG. AG in the USA is excessively dependent on the chemical industry, and has become that in large part because it has been too lightly regulated by EPA and the other parts of the government. They are among the most powerful lobbies in the USA, and if you think there is even a chance that they are adequately regulated by the US government or its designated agencies, you need to spend a day or two on the floor of the Senate seeing how the legislative sausage gets made in Washington DC, as I have over many years. It ain't pretty. Again, I am not saying the LC industry should not be part of the solution, but when you have a problem, you don't go after the fleas, you go for the 800 lb gorilla, which in this case is Big AG. This has not been done very adequately IMO.
    And yes, on the Seattle paper, I found its tone biased, pretentious and authoritarian -- who are they to tell my customers what kind of lawn they should like. That's up to the individual.

    07fig_3-3.gif
     
  4. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 18,298

    First, information without a citation is no information at all. For example this .....

    http://cfpub.epa.gov/npdes/stormwat...eet_results&view=specific&bmp=98&minmeasure=1

    or this

    http://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/circ1225/

    or this

    http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/wq/wqp/wqpollutants/pesticides/factsheets/FactsheetP1.pdf

    Second, pointing out that ag uses more pesticides than landscapes is like claiming the sun is hot. More to the point, can you present some credible sources showing lawn & landscape pesticide/fertilizer use is not a significant source of pollution? How about some discussion on the number of unqualified people handling & being exposed to these ferts & pesticides vs. ag?

    Third, again with implying Ag is not regulated while the lawn & landscape industry is heavily regulated. Feel free to peruse (on your own time) the regulations on food and ag in CA. Then compare those to lawn & landscape regulations.

    http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/calawquery?codesection=fac&codebody

    And while you are at it, why not review the EPA/Fed regulations on Ag as well and make a comparison to regulations on lawn & landscape.

    http://www.epa.gov/agriculture/tpes.html

    Fourth, this is not a political debate. The recommendations in that paper are scientifically and agronomically sound. If you have a problem with the recommendations, then make a case against them with references

    Fifth, you ignored everything I brought up and have now latched onto some political nonsense instead of discussing the merits of the papers with regard to managing turf, which are for the most part, universally applicable. If you want to discuss politics, take it to the political forum. If you want to discuss how to manage your soils, irrigation and turf with respect to over seeding (per OP) and maintaining high density stands of turf with minimal inputs then by all means lets continue.

    The paper is titled "Ecologically Sound Lawn Care for the Pacific Northwest". Further, I already demonstrated how you misinterpreted what was written. Do you have some specific quotes/examples of this supposed mandate that was handed down you would like to share?
     
  5. maynardGkeynes

    maynardGkeynes LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 409

    I cite the source of the chart as the EPA. If you have trouble finding it using google, please advise.
     
  6. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 18,298

    That is all you have to say? Why is it so hard for you to source your information?

    http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/pestsales/07pestsales/usage2007_2.htm#3_5

    FYI .... 2007 conventional pesticide non-ag use is 20%, and for "other pesticides" 30% non-ag, just in case you missed that part. Hardly insignificant, but whatever.
     
  7. DieselMDX

    DieselMDX LawnSite Member
    from MA
    Posts: 72

    thank you posting that article from Umass I printed for my records.


    The seed is finally down pics to follow
     
  8. DieselMDX

    DieselMDX LawnSite Member
    from MA
    Posts: 72

    Question would be overkill to use a spreader and use more seed on my very thin areas?

    I used all my seed with the slice seeder then top soiled my thin areas. I was thinking of laying more seed and raking it in with the top soil
     
  9. Smallaxe

    Smallaxe LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 10,081

    I do that all Season long when necessary... it is amazing that when it is hot out and the ground temps are 80 degrees or so, that you can get new seed, not just AR, but actual grass seed to germinate in less then 5 days sometimes...
    I got the feeling after some lawns were allowed to die during the drought that unless the dormant seed takes off, I'll be filling in bare spots all summer long... it is a valid tactic... :)
     
  10. DieselMDX

    DieselMDX LawnSite Member
    from MA
    Posts: 72

    thank you axe


    if u r constantly seeding areas how do u water?

    by hand or set sprinklers to water more frequently?
     

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