I currently aerate lawns in the Chicago area. Lawns are mostly Kentucky Bluegrass along with some Ryegrass and Fescues. Many of my customers use ChemLawn/Truegreen and they are not totally pleased with their service/prices. I do not want to become a licensed/insured pesticide applicator. So I need help in designing an application program. I like the idea of corn gluten meal for crabgrass and broadleaf weed protection applied in the spring (early April) 20lb/1000ft2. End of May, a commercial grade lawn food with a biostimulant (21-3-5) fertilizer which contains micronutrients. Beginning of fall, corn gluten meal 20lb/1000ft2. Fall, aerate and topdress with a compost/top soil mix-1/2 inch per year. Has anyone used CGM on lawns after typical chemical pesticides regiments? Was there a noticable increase/decrease in weed population, turf color, turf density, etc? I would like some feedback before I select a program.
I'm not sure about Illinois, but I'm pretty sure that in Pennsylvania, the program you are proposing requires you to be certified. With the exception of fertilizer, soil or composts, anytime you apply products to a property other than your own, you must have certification.
Well, its hard to give very many comments on your program with just the info you gave, but here are a few thoughts off of the top of my head.
* The biggest issue I see is that you are not applying enough potash. Corn Gluten is generally considered 10-0-0. So..... at 20#/1000 you are applying 2# of slow release nitrogen per thousand. (Most research I have done on CGM says you need 30#/m to have any effectiveness against crabgrass -- but I'm not an expert on this so I may be worng.) But there is no potash.
The summer app of 21-3-5, guessing .5 pound of N (?) would only give you .12# of potash per thousand.
I generally work to try and get atleast 1.5# of potash, assuming clippings are retuerned.
Do you need CGM in the fall again for weed control? Applying another dose of 2# of nitrogen, but no phos. or potash.
So your annual program is providing the lawn with
4.5# N
.07# P
.12# K
Assuming clippings are returned I try to get 3# N - .08#P - 1.5#K.
So your program would seem to be a little high on the nitrogen and extremely lacking in potash for me to use.
You might consider using another commercial, organic based fertilizer with sulphate of Potash to boopst your annual potash.
What is the 21-3-5 fertilizer you plan on using? Most of the organic fertilizers I've seen like that are way to expensive for me to make a decent profit.
Agreed Tim. Going as high as 2# of potash per thousand is a good idea. Kansas State University reccommends 2# of K as a maintenace program. It also says that clippings returned to the lawn can be equivilant to a pound or more of potash. This is what I based my statement on.
What ratio do you reccommend with and without clippings returned?
This is of course a mintenance program and should be adjusted according to individual lawns soil test.
in my view, the all the 'number crunching' just confuses the issue.
i understand that these numbers are 'reccomended'.
in the spirit of an organic program in which it takes time to establish the balance required for healthy turf, then the power of observation will demonstrate what does and doesnt work. A seasonal perspective is important.
time, then is an important factor. In todays world of instant gratification, some folks cant be patient to let nature do the work.
The perfect lawn will not be achieved thru one season. It may take two. BUT, in the long term , once that 'balance' is achieved, the effort required for an effective maintenance program is reduced over a few seasons. one season builds on the next, and therefore the cost to maintain the turf is decreased every year.
Healthy soil= healthy turf. Healthy turf doesnt leave any room for weeds,
Feeding the soil organic matter attracts earthworms....they do the aerating.
they deposit worm castings on the surface...same concept as topdressing.
But again...this takes time.
The term organic should refer to establishing( or re-establishing)and maintaining BALANCE.
timely (1/3 rule)mulch mowing and the application of organic matter are all that is required.
Nature does the rest.
Hence the term the 'balance of nature'.
i have never used CGM, but the application of cracked corn this season has resulted in a consistent deep green color and uniform thickening of the turf. Not much sign of reduction in weeds yet,but i expect the weeds will be struggling to take hold in the spring due to increased turf density.
Add the pre-emergent properties of CGM the weeds would be losing the battle.
Make the enviroment good for the grass and it will thrive.
Is an 'organic' program like i have outlined practical? I think so, but time is the most important factor.
Thanks to all the posters who gave their help and ideas. Lawn care seems to be a never ending education process. Also, lawn care seems like ordering a pizza. Every individual person has his or her idea of the perfect ingredients to put on top of a pizza. Like a lawn program and ordering pizza toppings, there a many good methods, depending upon the person, some better suited than others.
Your idea sounds great. and all great tips. If you want to use synthetic fert sell your lawncare as -- Pesticide Free -- If you want to sell it as organic use 100 % organic fert. Milorganite is organic and pretty cheap and works amazinly. U will need to complement it with Potash. Mix some with the Milorganite or do spring with CGM then fall with 8-3-3. A question to the science guys, and Im seriously having trouble wrapping my brain around this one.
Organic Fert has less n-p-k but we apply more of it. If I apply 8-3-3 at twice the amount you apply a synthetic 16-6-6 would we be applying the same amount of nutrients. Before u get into the number cruntching re: the correct ratio plz directly answer the question. And again im not making a point, I assumed by applying more of it people on organic prgms could get same amounts as people on synth. ty lots.
Organic Fert has less n-p-k but we apply more of it. If I apply 8-3-3 at twice the amount you apply a synthetic 16-6-6 would we be applying the same amount of nutrients. Before u get into the number cruntching re: the correct ratio plz directly answer the question. And again im not making a point, I assumed by applying more of it people on organic prgms could get same amounts as people on synth. ty lots. [/B]
Short answer - yes, if you apply twice as much 8-3-3, you'll be applying the same amount of N as 16-6-6. And conversely, you only have to apply half the amount of 16-6-6 to get the same amount N as 8-3-3.
Your assumption is based on the notion that the recommended application rate and coverage areas are identical for 50 lb bags of each. They aren't. Note the coverage areas.
Base your application on lbs./1000 s.f.
For example - your 50 lb bag of organic 8-3-3 covers say 3500 sf. Since 8% of that fertilzer is N, you're applying 4 lbs of N over 3500 sf . . . about 1.14 lbs of N/1000 s.f
Now take a 50 lb bag of synth - say Lesco's 24-2-11. But notice the coverage for the 50 lb bag is 12,000 sf.
24% of that bag is N, so that's 12 lbs. of N in the 50 lb bag. 12 lbs of N for 12,000 sf . . . 1 lb/1000 sf
I believe we apply more actual N per 1000ft2 from an organic source at any one application because N will be converted to an available form of nitrate to the grass plant slowly.
So if you apply 2 lbs of actual N per 1000ft2 and it is slowly available over 4 months that would be about .5lbs actual N per month.
On the other hand if you apply a synthetic source like S.C.U (sulfur coated urea) it could all be available in 8 weeks if soil temps are high and or lots of rain/irrigation. If you applied 2lbs of actual N from a S.C.U. source and it is available in 8 weeks then the plant would have 1 lb. of actual nitrogen per month available and depending on type of grass and time of year this could cause a lot of top growth as well as use up carbohydrate storage that the plant would otherwise use to protect itself against stress/disease.
Nitrogen forms like CGM, IBDU and Urea Formaldhyde (38-0-0 nitroform) are available at a very slow rate. They are applied at higher rates less frequently. Ammonical nitrogen sources as well as urea nitrogen sources release at a much faster rate. So we make more applications per year spoon feeding the plants a little at a time and at the proper rate and time. In My opionion you can screw up a lawn a lot quicker using the fast sources of N if you do not know the plants specific needs. Get to know how all of these different products really work by research. When used properly the results will be the same.
I used CGM a couple years ago. I applied 15 pounds per 1,000 square feet in mid Feb (we have a really early spring, here in San Antonio). I let it sit dry for three weeks until it rained.
Results: Three weeks after it rained, my grass looked like it was on steroids. I could have mowed it twice a week but I resisted the urge. Color was deep dark green. I've never seen any fertilizer results anything like that. I did not notice any increase in density - my yard is in 90% shade so density is a problem here. I did not notice any decrease in weeds, but then again, I don't normally have summer weeds. At the time I thought I was applying it for the spring weeds, but I have learned since that the spring weed seeds sprout in the fall, so I was about 4 months late for that application.
From what I've read, a good application rate to keep the weeds down is 30-40 pounds of CGM per 1,000 square feet. If I applied it at 15 #/ksqft, I can't imagine what would happen at 30-40 #/ksqft!!! Some places that application rate is affordable and some it is not. Ohio and Kentucky seem to have CGM for about $6/100 pounds. Look at feed stores and farmers' co-ops for the best prices.
Originally posted by Dchall_San_Antonio I used CGM a couple years ago. I applied 15 pounds per 1,000 square feet in mid Feb (we have a really early spring, here in San Antonio). I let it sit dry for three weeks until it rained.
Ohio and Kentucky seem to have CGM for about $6/100 pounds. Look at feed stores and farmers' co-ops for the best prices.
I read this entire thread with a lot of interest. I then tried to understand the numbers with some success. I then had to admit that I could not find just what "CGM" means.
Could some one splain what CGM is to this dummy?
I really like this new forum and am trying to get a basic understanding of "organic programs".
I will experment with my own yard to learn before I try "new" methods with my clients.
I started with a fall application of corn gluten in my front yard and chemical winterizer and pre-emergent in the back yard. It ain't scientific but I will know a lot more about it this spring.
Thanks to Dave and the rest of you guys for the education process.
plz let us know how the Corn Gluten Meal (cgm) works for you, i have to pay a lot for my pellet form cgm right now and i pass it along to the customer. Its 30$ a 50lb bag. Its for people who want less weeds without pesticides. as stated it is also a wonderful source of nitrogen. The morons in the provincial legislature havnt put in on the exempted list so since i dont have a pesticide licence i sell it has a fetilizer (with benificial side effects and here are the studies to prove them)
remember not to use cgm when u are planning an overseed. great product, organic weed and feed. as supply increases price will drop and it will become more available. as with all organic products there is no big money behind it to anounce it to the world as the way to have a nice, weed free lawn. one customer at a time for now.
most of natural organics applied at 1 lbs/m will last @ 8 weeks when soil temp is greater than 55 degrees
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