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Organica 4 Step Lawn Care Program

39K views 211 replies 23 participants last post by  Grohorganic 
#1 ·
Organica 4 Step Lawn Care Program..
1st step Lawn Booster 8-1-1 (corn gluten meal)
2nd step Kelp Booster
3rd step Microbial Soil Conditioner
4th step Lawn booster
Anyone have any knowledge of the product line. Can i offer this as a program to my customers. Does it have a any weed killer effects or is it just fertilizer for the lawn. What exactly will it to to the lawn?
 
#177 ·
CIRCUS ANIMAL MANURE
Circus animal manure can be used on most gardens and incorporated into compost piles, where allowed by law.
An elephant will produce approximately 164,250 pounds of waste per year. The manure is similar in texture to horse manure and is classified as a "hot" type, meaning manure has the ability to burn plants if used in a fresh state.

Lion manure has a strong odor. Production can be 4,562 pounds per year. Lion manure is considered "cold" and should not have a burning effect. "Big Cat" manures, including tiger and panther, may have some effect in keeping animals out of the garden. However, make sure the animals have not been fed meat products.

Giraffe manure is "hot" and produced at the rate of 18,250 pounds per year. The texture is closer to sheep manure.
 
#178 ·
Kiril,

Leave it go man....Guys like Marcos, Ted, and the "homeowner" aren't worth your time.

What's funny is that there was that 80 page thread about organics, farming etc, and now some of those same guys (Ray and Rod) are now inquiring about organics and organic based products.
 
#180 ·
I thought I'd let this drop and then you go around bugging me on other threads and you start calling people names. I should just ignore your childishness but you've really irked me.

Let's take WBO for instance. I used his own single piece of "evidence", not even peer reviewed, to show his statements are wrong
That was a bulletin summarizing a collection of studies. If you do a publication search for the titles of the individual studies you'll see at least some of them have been published in peer review journals. I say some because I only checked a couple and found the journals they were published in. The only "peers" reviewing your rants seem to your friends here. Dishboy who claimed to have never used compost on his lawn in another thread, only organic fertilizers and growrootsorganically who described pretty much the same position I have on organic lawn care in another thread. Thankfully though, I don't think anyone here could really be considered your "peer". If it wasn't for your caustic behavior maybe I could have learned a bit from them and crazy as it may sounds, maybe them from me.

Now lets look at what the bulletin said word for word in the summary with emphasis added:

Using compost in the garden has many benefits. For most vegetables and cut flowers, recent research at The Connecticut Agricultural Experiment Station has shown that fertilizer can often be eliminated when the soil is amended annually with 1 inch of leaf compost. However, optimum yields are obtained when leaf compost and some inorganic fertilizer are used, usually half the normal rate, and after 2 or 3 years of consecutive compost amendments. Optimum yields can also be achieved using compost and organic fertilizers but they are generally less effective, especially on sandy soils.
Maybe I'm a freak. I don't want to just have grass to keep the soil from blowing or washing away. If that's all I cared about I wouldn't add anything. For years I never added any fertilizer or compost and always had a lawn. I saw the results of some people and I know with a little bit of work I can have a great lawn.

I want a lawn that stands out from the neighbors. I want a lawn so green mothers tell their children to cross the street because they think my lawn is toxic. I want a lawn so dark people get into car accidents because they are so distracted by it. I want dirty hippies to to have a sit in on my sidewalk to protest my use of toxic petroleum based fertilizers so I can shoo 'em away with a hose and hurl bags of corn meal at them. I want a lawn so nice I have to install security cameras to catch the local squirt and fert guys that try and kill it in the middle of the night. I want a lawn so thick and lush female joggers can't help but strip naked and roll around in it and giggle because I've found that there's no better way to wake up in the morning than to the sound of the giggling of naked chics.

And I'm looking at everything I need to do to get there starting from pouring over data on specific genetically engineered grass seeds that will give me the qualities I desire, materials to improve and feed the soil as well as ways to prevent and treat problems. And I want to do it all without using any synthetic products. As long as I don't put anything harmful in my immediate vicinity I don't care if causes the complete deforestation of an entire region or starvation in a.... Woah.. Getting a bit carried away there. :) I think a lot of people know where I'm coming from.

that would be essentially two B.S. degrees
I was going to let this one slide but I seem to have given you too much credit when I implied you were an academic and possibly an associate professor. What does essentially two B.S. degrees mean? You either have two degrees or you don't. Not one accredited university gives out essentially degrees. If you completed the required curriculum to get the degrees you'd have them. Sounds like you just take classes here and there as a hobby.

There's also a vast difference between undergrad and post graduate study. Until you get into post graduate work you're not really working hands-on on any new research, you're just studying what's already been done. In undergrad course work you might be part of an experiment as a lacky to do grunt work which is also what a lot of post grads wind up doing until they start working towards their PhDs.

For some reason this forum tolerates you but I suspect you're part of the reason why this is one of the worst places to find information about organic lawn care and it didn't have to be that way. In fact, it should be the opposite. All I see whenever I come here looks like spam from the people that pay enough and are allowed to do so. It's so bad that there are numerous times I've seen someone ask a question and the response is nothing more than a canned "click the link in my sig".

I had no intention of belittling you but don't put your opinions on the same level as people that focus years of their lives in the thoughtful study and understanding of the things us normal folk get to read about and play with. And don't try and tell me what I just read and what it means. I've read many papers in different journals in different fields.

Anyone else with a different perspective gets criticized and accused of being a rep.

The rest of the site is great and I've found some invaluable information on equipment and techniques. Most of the time just drooling because I don't really have the space or can justify a lot of it. Helps me find the right stuff to rent though.

Since I took the time to create an account and some of you seem to know what you're talking about and have real experience directly involved in organic lawn care I thought I'd poke around and read and give some information where I thought I could. Only to be met by people that wanted to continue this crap throughout the site. It's clear that some people want to make everyone know that they're the biggest fish in the pond. Unfortunately that's just going to keep this a pretty small pond.

For people that seemed nice enough I sent some PM's with info that seemed to be useful. So I'll probably try and see if I can get this thread up to 200 (maybe I'll email the thread to Organica and see if they'll give $10 for every time Kiril popped a vein) but I know where I'm not wanted and it doesn't hurt my feelings. It's been a very unique and fun experience.
 
#183 ·
You are misspeaking. That lawn in question is not my lawn but a clients , and I have done compost trials in controlled settings.
You're right, sorry about that. In one of the pics it looked like you took it from your truck parked in the driveway so I assumed it was your lawn.
 
#184 ·
What does essentially two B.S. degrees mean? You either have two degrees or you don't. Not one accredited university gives out essentially degrees. If you completed the required curriculum to get the degrees you'd have them. Sounds like you just take classes here and there as a hobby.
It means I have a degree in Soil and Water Science and enough units for a degree in Applied Plant Biology, just not the right courses (hence a couple courses short). I custom tailored my degree for Plant-Soil-Water Relationships and it wasn't until right before I graduated that I realized I had nearly completed a 2nd degree in plant biology. Total units acquired in my college/university experience is around 260, perhaps even more. How many people who hold a masters degree or possibly even a PhD have that many units WBO? Don't think my other half has more units than I do, and she has a PhD.

There's also a vast difference between undergrad and post graduate study. Until you get into post graduate work you're not really working hands-on on any new research, you're just studying what's already been done. In undergrad course work you might be part of an experiment as a lacky to do grunt work which is also what a lot of post grads wind up doing until they start working towards their PhDs.
Grad work is very specific, and more times than not is studying what has already been done, just perhaps in a different light. You basically take a very narrow subject and study the hell out of it. It helps you to understand in great detail one small part of the big picture. I am curious how you think it provides a better understanding of the entire big picture? I spent a lot of time educating myself to not only understand the big picture, but how each part works and relates with the other. And to be quite honest, there is a lot more that I could learn. Due to continuing education in these and related fields, I also now have a pretty massive pdf archive of mostly peer reviewed publications and published information from reputable sources.

FYI, I also took some grad level courses and participated in several research projects, but of course you would rather make insulting assumptions about me rather than simply asking.

Oh, and just so we are clear post grad = post PhD, not post bachelors.

So how about you? All I see you doing is questioning my education, so what is yours as it relates to this field?

For some reason this forum tolerates you but I suspect you're part of the reason why this is one of the worst places to find information about organic lawn care and it didn't have to be that way. In fact, it should be the opposite.
There is a TON of good information on this forum, and it doesn't come from a bunch of homeowners "experimenting" with their lawns. So I guess it depends on what you are looking for .... home owner 'experimentation" or years of professional success, much of which is backed by peer reviewed research.

Now lets look at what the bulletin said word for word in the summary with emphasis added:
And once again, you have done nothing more than demonstrate your inability to understand the thrust of the bulletin. Furthermore, you have yet to present even one valid argument showing how to relate "optimum yield" of vegetables to managing turf. If you are so convinced that compost cannot serve as the sole source of fertility in turf management, then why didn't you comment on the docs I postedin Ray's thread?

Since you want to be the master here, go ahead and impress us with a logical argument backed with references refuting these two docs.

http://ohric.ucdavis.edu/Newsltr/CTC/ctcv51_1234.pdf

http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/PDF/turfcare.pdf

And believe me, I have many more to throw at you.

I had no intention of belittling you but don't put your opinions on the same level as people that focus years of their lives in the thoughtful study and understanding of the things us normal folk get to read about and play with.
And you again assume myself and others that contribute to this forum don't do the same? Dude, you are a real piece of work. Do you even read your insulting posts? You claim to have no intent to belittle, but then you go out of your way to belittle me in this post and continuously in this thread, and now have belittled everyone else who contributes to this forum.

Only to be met by people that wanted to continue this crap throughout the site.
Really ....

I thought I'd let this drop
So again, this makes you a what? Funny thing about it, you remind me a lot of another guy from IL who used to frequent this forum, doing much the same thing as you are doing. He also pretended to be an expert, presented much "information" without a clear understanding of what he was presenting, and in the process more times than not only got it half right. And like you, he also took offense and resorted to personal attack and insults when someone corrected him instead of just saying thanks ..... or at least engage in intelligent discussion.

For people that seemed nice enough I sent some PM's with info that seemed to be useful.
So I'm curious WBO, since it seems you want to pass yourself off as an expert in this field based on your posts, and you like to question other peoples qualifications, what are your qualifications and experience outside of your yard?
 
#185 ·
why didn't you comment on the docs I postedin Ray's thread?
Because I have no interest in cluttering up other threads and I only respond to you if as I'm scrolling down the page I see my username mentioned and feel inclined to.

home owner 'experimentation" or years of professional success
Show me years of professional success.
Since I enjoy reading what DCHall writes I thought I'd look at some of what else he wrote on here and I ran across another instance where you talk about sustainability and you try and get people to get rid of their lawns.

I don't know if you noticed, but the title of this site is Lawn Site and the tag line is "The Landscaping Professional's Original & Largest Online Community"

When it comes to sustainability in this context I'd guess most people here care about sustaining their revenue, sustaining the roof over their family's heads, sustaining a well stocked refrigerator so they don't go hunger and things of that nature.

Why not come up with a business plan using the sustainable practices you keep talking about so that people who make a living out of lawn care can follow that and maintain a profitable business that is as good as or better than their current business model. Put it into practice. Show your revenue, expenses, profit margins, marketing, etc. That will go a long way instead of badgering people into following your ideals.

Ideals which you claimed you don't put into practice as a lawn care operator except a little bit here and there.

Don't tell people it can be done. Show them you are doing it. You want people to go all sustainable and organic in their line of work, show them how it's done by doing it.

I never claimed to be an expert and I no longer have interest in even seeing this thread go to 200.
 
#186 ·
You are unbelievable dude. What the hell do you think I have been doing here advising you to build your SOM with compost? And who have I been badgering? Have you or anyone here shown that compost is not the best way (both economically and environmentally) to build a sustainable/organic system? This is the organics forum ... no? Would you prefer to continue to use high priced "organics" in an attempt to replace synthetic ferts, or would you rather build a long term, sustainable solution? Don't know about you, but the answer seems pretty clear to me.

No comments on the paper showing high quality turf can be maintain with only compost? That is interesting considering your comments in this thread.

So what part of building sustainable systems don't you understand? Do I actually have to do all the labor too in order for a plan I design to be implemented? Really dude, your arguments are illogical at best. Do engineers build what they design?

Thanks for your incorrect assumptions about me once again and for avoiding my questions.

Also let me know when you read all the information I have presented on this site doing exactly what you claim I haven't done (with exception to the silly suggestion I present a business plan/model on a public forum) FOC.
 
#187 ·
No comments on the paper showing high quality turf can be maintain with only compost? That is interesting considering your comments in this thread.
Good morning Kiril, I had a feeling you'd leave me some presents this morning. You want my comments here they are.

The study only weakens your argument. First of all it was "low maintenance" turf not "high quality turf". The fertilizers they tested against were applied only once a year except for the ammonium sulfate which was applied 4x a year. That's not a typical fertilization schedule for high quality turf. Applying one treatment of 34-0-7 or 4 treatments of 21-0-0 sound doesn't sound like what a typical residential lawn receives?

The compost they used was 50% green waste and 50% biosolids. There is much debate on whether biosolids should be considered organic or not and nobody who gives any type of organic seal of approval considers biosolids organic. So for many people, this study is not applicable to organic lawn care but I'll go on.

Any application rate they tested for compost greater than 1/4" smothered the grass for months. No way a client would want their lawn unsightly for months.

1/4" of compost once a year did about the same as the fertilizer program which I already mentioned seems pretty crappy. For the 1/4" of compost they needed to spread 1,110 lbs of compost compared to 12 lbs of SRF and 20 lbs of AS but somehow it cost almost 5x more to apply 12 lbs of fertilizer than it did to apply 1,110 lbs of compost. That doesn't make any sense so I'm not even going to look at those numbers. There isn't even a figure for delivery. Even if they picked it up themselves, theres the added cost for gas. You can pick up a 12 lb bag of fertilizer on a bicycle. Cost of SRF $10.08, cost of AS $2.80, cost of 1,110 lbs of compost $13.04.

By applying 1/4" of the compost/biosolid 4 times a year they got better results than the fertilizer which shouldn't come as surprise. At that application rate, they were delivering 8 lbs of N per 1,000 sq ft each year. That's twice the 4 lbs applied with the fertilizers. In addition you're spending more than 5x for material, and spreading 2.22 tons of material.

The cost of compost seems very low and it doesn't factor in either renting or owning a vehicle to transport it, the gas associated with transporting that much material or the delivery charges.

Spreading 1,110 lbs per 1k sq ft may not be so bad if you are just doing one lawn, but what if you have dozens of clients. It's easy to say "suck it up and spread compost" since you said you only have one lawn you still manage but someone doing this for all their clients, how many tons are they supposed to suck up? Now multiply that 4 times a year and it sounds even less pleasant.

Compare that to applying compost just once a year or every other year and using organic fertilizers to keep the lawn green and healthy. You'll get better results by just using one application of compost and it will be a lot easier and cheaper.

Compost looks great on paper but if you're the one out there doing the work, or have to pay guys enough to do the work for dozens of properties and manage to fit them all in a certain schedule, it doesn't look so good.

Running a business like this isn't what you do. Marcos apparently does this and he has clients that get just compost, clients that get compost and organic fertilizers and clients that just get organic fertilizers and he's been doing this for years. His opinion obviously means more because he has real world experience with all three applications as well as the experience he's had marketing them to his clients. You don't and all the research and test you do don't compare to him doing it as a business.

How sustainable is compost anyway? You have to build trucks to haul it around short distances. These trucks aren't built locally. They aren't as fuel efficent as long haul trucks and trains. All that gas, machinery and compost could probably be used to plant enough soybean or corn to fertilize the same area. Let the farmers have .75" of my compost, I'll keep .25" and buy some meal from them.

I'm also more with DCHall on this one. Compost is good, especially if you're low on organic matter but there are other ways to get organic matter that are cheaper and easier. The addition of fresh sources of food for your soil biology seems like a good idea.

I see it like this. They say you should recycle your grass clippings. In addition to adding organic matter you recycle nitrogen and water. If you bagged your clippings, let them dry out and brown out on the deck and then put them back into your law, all you are adding is organic matter.

There's nothing you've shown me that has swayed me. Sure you can fertilize your lawn with only compost but it doesn't seem cheap, easy or practical. I could keep my lawn green just by taking a wizz into my hose end sprayer once a week and spreading it around but I don't think the neighbors would like that too much. Talk about sustainable.

When someone like marcos can get all his clients over to only compost and his business is still doing as well I might change my mind. Until then I'm done with this discussion.

So what part of building sustainable systems don't you understand? Do I actually have to do all the labor too in order for a plan I design to be implemented? Really dude, your arguments are illogical at best. Do engineers build what they design?
It's all clear now. You want to come up with the plan that saves the planet and then expect these guys to do the hard work of spreading compost as well as figuring out how to make a living doing it while you watch and pat yourself on the back. You think these guys don't know about compost? You think if it was an easy sell people like Marcos wouldn't have much more clients on a mostly compost plan?

Anyone can come up with a plan on paper. Turning it into a sustainable business throughout the country is quite different.

Now go ahead and pick the one or two things you think I got wrong and pretend that makes everything I said wrong.
 
#188 ·
Now go ahead and pick the one or two things you think I got wrong and pretend that makes everything I said wrong.
You mean your post trying to avoid admitting compost CAN meet the fertility needs of turf with more excuses and unsound arguments? That by the way was my problem with you in this thread. You keep insisting compost cannot meet the nutrient needs of turf and have gone to great lengths to avoid admitting it can.
 
#189 ·
You mean your post trying to avoid admitting compost CAN meet the fertility needs of turf with more excuses and unsound arguments? That by the way was my problem with you in this thread. You keep insisting compost cannot meet the nutrient needs of turf and have gone to great lengths to avoid admitting it can.
For what feels like the 1000th time. Saying I think compost + organic fertilizers is better than just using compost doesn't mean compost can't meet the needs. You can apply the weakest compost every week to meet the needs it's just not practical.
 
#190 ·
For what feels like the 1000th time. Saying I think compost + organic fertilizers is better than just using compost doesn't mean compost can't meet the needs. You can apply the weakest compost every week to meet the needs it's just not practical.
And there you go again, avoiding the issue that started this. Why do you continue to go to great lengths to avoid the issue?

No you can't according to research I previously quoted. Compost doesn't deliver near the same amount of nitrogen for one.
So which is it WBO? Are you going to continue to maintain that compost cannot be used in place of your preferred bagged products?

I suggest compost as an alternative to bagged products and you drag this thread out over how many pages in a failing attempt to show it cannot.

1) compost can be used to meet the fertility needs of turf

2) the goal of "organic" program with respect to the system is building and maintaining SOM.

And still you have not shown the above two statements are not true. Instead you continue to avoid doing so with irrelevant arguments.

Just in case you didn't know, most of the people who contribute to this forum actually do care about the environment and could care less about your childish reasons for wanting a unnaturally green lawn.
 
#192 ·
Maybe I'm a freak. I don't want to just have grass to keep the soil from blowing or washing away. If that's all I cared about I wouldn't add anything. For years I never added any fertilizer or compost and always had a lawn. I saw the results of some people and I know with a little bit of work I can have a great lawn.

I want a lawn that stands out from the neighbors. I want a lawn so green mothers tell their children to cross the street because they think my lawn is toxic. I want a lawn so dark people get into car accidents because they are so distracted by it. I want dirty hippies to to have a sit in on my sidewalk to protest my use of toxic petroleum based fertilizers so I can shoo 'em away with a hose and hurl bags of corn meal at them. I want a lawn so nice I have to install security cameras to catch the local squirt and fert guys that try and kill it in the middle of the night. I want a lawn so thick and lush female joggers can't help but strip naked and roll around in it and giggle because I've found that there's no better way to wake up in the morning than to the sound of the giggling of naked chics.
Nice post, WBO! Hilarious! :)
Ya miss a few days of lawnsite, ya miss a lot.

I think what all this boils down to is that Kiril is perfectly content with a much lower bar of expectation than the average Joe or Jane Homeowner.
And again, like I've stated before, the geographic differences are vast.
Taken as a whole, people are altogether different in the Midwest, as compared to the left coast:dizzy:.
All points regarding 'sustainability' pushed to the rear for a moment, Californians are generally farther away from grain and/or wheat belts, so if meals aren't cost-effective there, what would be the incentive for them to use CGM, corn meal, soybean meal, etc?
Maybe kelp meal would work there, if it can be processed efficiently & cleanly enough.
Fish meal, if they can tolerate the stench! :cry:

In any good marketing program, you'd better have at least a little bit of 'sway'...a.k.a 'options' in the program.
It doesn't matter if the prospect is young or old, male or female, liberal or conservative, black, white, green or purple.....they want options to choose from.

Kiril is a one-man-band out there trying to persuade customers into 'his' corner.
A VERY LONELY corner containing only the servicing of compost topdressing.
That's business recipe #1 for leaving lots o' unsigned contracts & unshaken hands.
So in this way too, his bar of expectations is low, whether he fully realizes it or not.
 
#193 ·
You're right about attitudes varying by region and demographics.

I can see how a lawn might be more offensive in areas where it would need irrigation to survive but that's not the climate I live in.

Your approach sounds good and is applicable to many types of businesses. What I feel works best is to start out by telling the client what they need. They're not paying just for your labor, they're paying for your expertise in most cases. Then give them options that they can choose from in terms they can understand. Which sounds like what you do.

Customers like to have some control but when they ask you what you're going to do for their lawn you can't just say "I don't know... what do you want me to do?" :) If they knew what to do they'd probably just do it themselves.
 
#194 ·
I think what all this boils down to is that Kiril is perfectly content with a much lower bar of expectation than the average Joe or Jane Homeowner.
Don't confused realistic with low Marcos. As you like to put it, I prefer to live in the real world, not one little corner of it.

Kiril is a one-man-band out there trying to persuade customers into 'his' corner.
A VERY LONELY corner containing only the servicing of compost topdressing.
That's business recipe #1 for leaving lots o' unsigned contracts & unshaken hands.
So in this way too, his bar of expectations is low, whether he fully realizes it or not.
Funny Marcos ..... never had ever 1 client balk at compost .... EVER! Guess my clients trust me to make the correct management decisions for their land. You know what else .... I've saved them ALOT of money too. Guess a healthy landscape with low inputs and low economic impact on the owner are not appealing to people in your little corner of the world.
 
#199 ·
THat's some great looking grass!.. No weeds.. good color.

Is it an optical illusion, or part of the variety? up close it looks like the blades are pretty far apart.. also sort hard to tell with low res pic.. but it looks like the home owners blades need to be sharpened.. the grass has brown crowns..
Here ya go .... all the above answered

http://www.lawnsite.com/album.php?albumid=229
 
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