Organics, All or Nothing?

Discussion in 'Organic Lawn Care' started by aclane2000, Jan 13, 2011.

  1. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 18,298

    Yes you can generalize, and given our infantile understanding of these systems, what choice do we have? You can also over generalize which serves no purpose other than to marginalize important variables that need to be considered, or over generalize to the point of just being plain wrong.
     
  2. phasthound

    phasthound LawnSite Platinum Member
    Posts: 4,560

    Hey, you're the one who asked the question.
    Tell me JD, what happens when organic matter is decomposed?

    Just trying to have a conversation here, not ruffling your feathers.
     
  3. Tim Wilson

    Tim Wilson LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 795

    That's right Bill and in the Gulf and other places where 'life' gets out of balance, it takes time for things to cycle back to normal.

    Have you ever read any of the diary entries of the European explorers astounded at the tremendous growth of grasses encountered on the plains (and thousands of bison) the like of which they had never seen?
     
  4. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 18,298

    Must be another one of those situations where you expect me to answer my own questions, questions that are meant to help people do their own research. :dizzy:
     
  5. JDUtah

    JDUtah LawnSite Silver Member
    from UT
    Posts: 2,636

    For those that are listening without the history of me, Tim, and Kiril I am one of those guys that believes BOTH things can be good. Kiril and Tim are of the mindset that organics only are good and synthetics are bad.

    The funny part is, with all of their professed knowledge they fail to admit that regardless of how it is produce (by man or microbe) plant nutrients are IONS that dissolve in water.

    Plant use these ions to build molecules to build cells.

    Microbes use these ions to build molecules to build cells.

    The difference is, microbes can also produce and excrete enzymes that turn rock and carbon molecules into these ions. Plants can't.

    This is why plants sometimes excrete carbohydrates (sugar) for the microbes. The extra energy allows microbes to populate and excrete enzymes and thus produce MORE ions... and thus both plant and microbe benefit because more "cell building blocks" becoming available. For both plant AND microbe!

    Kiril wants some academic documentation. Fine. I will quote from a plant physiology book that he has promoted several times on this forum. Plant Physiology Fourth Addition Tiaz & Zeiger starting on page 84.

    It states...
    Mineral nutrients are also called IONS. Which are also called salt based fertilizers. Whay the heck would a microbe compete FOR an ion if it doesn't want/need it?

    :hammerhead:

    More...
    This is the association that Tim is so fascinated with. In simple terms, plats produce sugar (chemical energy) in their leaves, and microbes produce ions (cell building blocks) in the soil. Both of which are needed for the manufacture of new cells in both plants and microbes. In the soil where plant roots and microbes meet, a fascinating thing happens where each uses the product manufactured by the other in a mutually beneficial way.

    More...
    Back on the issue. People out there believe BOTH can be good. Others out there believe only one can be good. Most of the time the people who believe only one can be good freak out at the very idea that BOTH can be good.

    Gotta go. BBL
     
  6. Smallaxe

    Smallaxe LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 10,080

    I don't know that anyone was talking about the NPK elements of synthetic fert being good or bad. At least originally, salt was the problem..

    I am curious about the salt coming from from the synthetics. Kiril had some nice photos of the excessive salt areas, but what about lesser amounts brought in with the ferts?
     
  7. Smallaxe

    Smallaxe LawnSite Fanatic
    Posts: 10,080

    This was a question that had come up in the past. Is an ion, an ion, is an ion? Is there such a thing as an 'organic ion' that is different from an 'inorganic ion?
     
  8. Tim Wilson

    Tim Wilson LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 795

    Actually there is some capability of root systems to excrete enzymes which ionize (dissolve) nutrients. This is mostly concerned with nitrogen (dissolved organic nitrogen) or DON as it is refered to. You may find info by googling.

    The bulk of organic N is delivered to plants, not by some synthesis or processing of rocks, etc. by bacteria but rather by flagellates, naked amoebae, nematodes (and to a minimal extent rotifers) eating bacteria and archaea and releasing up to 70% of the nutrient as ionic form nutrients, directly available to roots. Of course JD is correct that much of this energy originates with rock, etc. and organic matter which is degraded/processed by a myriad of organisms including fungi.

    There is not some big deal that certain bacteria consume the same nutrient forms as plants. Plants use this to their advantage to grow their herd of bacteria to attract the bacterial feeders or starve them out when it is time for a different nutrient. All I'm saying is that when one uses ionic form synthetic fertilizers, they are putting this cycle at an imbalance.
     
  9. NattyLawn

    NattyLawn LawnSite Bronze Member
    Posts: 1,643

    Tim, the above paragraph is the gist of the argument, IMO. Either JD can't grasp it, or chooses to ignore it.
     
  10. jalderfer63

    jalderfer63 LawnSite Member
    Posts: 99

    I have been using a bridge product on my lawn 15 years.My lawn has been the best lawn on my street.It has always been thick and green using a bridge product.I had a Beagle that went out on this lawn for over 16 years.The beagle did pass in 2010.I just think that a bridge product is the way to go.
     

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