I just want to back up cutntrim's post. I can't tell you how true his statements are. Most importantly - Property Managers! Property Managers can be your best friend or your worst enemy. I can definently name one that falls into the worst enemy categorie. Listen, I definently can sympathize with cutntrim because I know how it feels. One thing that really chaps my ass are all of you low bidders out there. I don't know why it is that most industries have set rates, but why is it that we always seem to get fly by night people who don't have a clue on how to bid and end up hurting everyone. I don't know about your area, but here some people are doing 50,000 sq. ft. lawns for $20 bucks. If you are one of these people you are screwing us and yourself! I've tried not to be to controversial in this forum, but I feel I need to stand up for my industry and my livelihood. Puting all of your eggs in one basket is not a good thing to do, but can't we just get a little bit of commitment and loyalty from these property managers and customers. It can be done, I truly think with being able to share more ideas via internet prices and rates in time could catch on. If all of the bottom feeders out there would grab a clue we could turn things around and all profit and have a less stress free business while making some money without having to always look over your shoulder. I lost a $600 a week acct. earlier this year and was sick about it for a week. I'm tired of that. It's time to make a stand. I also see bickering on this site as well. Why? So what if some people have different ideas than you do. You don't have to damn them for there own ideas. For the most part everyone on this site is very helpful. Let's keep that up and see if we can't get things to change for the better out there in the Green World! Good luck to all of you this season!