Prior AllPro installation, questions and thoughts!

Discussion in 'All Pro Putting Greens' started by Rexx, Nov 14, 2005.

  1. Rexx

    Rexx LawnSite Member
    from SW
    Posts: 2

    Chris, I'm relatively new to this board and saw you recently became a sponser. I wish you the best on this forum.

    Why do you not promote or sell nylon greens when other companies offer a better warranty on those products as opposed to the poly? I thought nylon fibers were more durable, like carpet, and produce a good roll although it may not hold a chip or flop? If someone has no room for chipping, why not nylon? Another question, can't you use a regular hole cutter used by golf courses to cut out your cups? This would allow you to do them last. Finally, you guys do a great job of marketing your services. You guys have come up with a great way of marketing to landscapers...something the Southwest PG, PGD, and others don't seem to do. I know the products are all the same, but it's more of a philosophical difference I suppose.

  2. allprogreens

    allprogreens LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 503

    Here is the detailed answer about Nylon vs. Poly Greens
    The bottom line is that a Nylon green will fail within a year. This causes the contractor many call-backs and alot of money to replace the green. We get calls from contractors every week that have these problems. We will not ever put a product on the market that we know would fail.

    Types of synthetic turf
    As you look into this business as an add-on service, you will find two types of putting green fiber – polypropylene and nylon. Depending on the material – poly is typically and infilled product and nylon is not. By examining the types of turf and infill process you can better understand how the turf will react when putting and chipping.

    The mark of a true professional synthetic green is that it is sand filled or infilled​

    Polypropylene – Infilled product
    • Sand blasting sand or coal slag – sand will pack down over time
    because it holds water. Coal slag is biodegradable, does not hold
    water, and will not pack down over time
    • Advantage: Infill gets in and around fibers and causes them to stick straight up or vertical
    • Advantage: doesn’t allow the fiber to matt down
    • Advantage: Infill provides cushion to the green when chipping or standing on the green
    • Advantage: Infill controls speed of the green. More infill, the faster the green, less infill, the slower the green
    • Advantage: A natural green that looks and blends well with existing grass and landscape
    • Disadvantage: Adding the infill is most labor intensive part of the install process

    Not all poly greens are the same.
    A Cheaper Costing Green = A Cheaper Quality Green – will show up the proformance of your installation​

    Saving 5 cents per sq.ft. can cost you thousands of dollars​

    What separates All Pro Greens from other companies that sell polypropylene greens?​

    1. We are the manufacturer and control the quality of the product
    • We have the densest turf in the industry and it’s the density of the turf that holds the infill in place
    • A “denure” is the width of the turf fiber. Most companies use a wider 7600 denure fiber. We use a narrower 5700 denure fiber. This means we are able to pack 20% more fiber, per sq. yard into the product.
    • We use a double primary backing. Most companies use a single primary backing. The double backing helps to anchor the fiber in place
    • We use a eurothane secondard backing that absorbs into the primary backing and helps to anchor and secure the turf fiber in place.
    • We double sheer the product to ensure the height of the fibers are consistent across the entire putting green surface.
    There are significant differences in the quality and construction of synthetic golf greens​

    Nylon – not infilled
    Advantage: not labor intensive because there is no infill process
    Disadvantage: nylon mats down time and there is nothing that can be done to bring the fibers back up. It could happen in 6 months, 8 months or a year, but it will happen
    Disadvantage: Companies claim that the fiber is “heat set” or has “memory” but those same companies’ warranties specifically say that, “matting is not covered under warranty”. Common sense tells us that if there in nothing to hold the fiber up, it will matt down given time. And all their warranties are highly "Pro-Rated"
    We are the only company in the country that offers a "1 year money back guarantee"
    Disadvantage: Nylon greens have foam or padded backings. These will compress over time being out in the heat, the cold, and when it does it will leave an irregular bumpy surface.
    Disadvantage: Foam padding will not allow for drainage and will hold water which causes mildew and mold problems
    Disadvantage: Color of nylon is a dark hunter green or a blue green which does not blend well with surrounding grass and looks rather unnatural in a yard or commercial application.

    I only reason we mention the Nylon greens and other’s polypropylene greens is that we get calls from contractors every week that have installed these greens and within a year have to rip them out.​

    The customer has paid you thousands of dollars and is expecting this to last for years, not months. One extreme case ………..We had a customer that installed a 24 x 30 nylon putting green. Charged the customer $10,000.00. Everything was OK for about 8 months then the fiber started to matt down. What started out for the contactor as a $5,500.00 profit turned into a break even job because he had to rip out the nylon putting green and replace it with our poly green.

    However, profits mean nothing when you consider all the call backs and the time and effort you’ve put into trying to please a customer. ​

    Think about the customer. Is he going to brag about the great product and service he received and send you referrals. Or is he going to complain to everybody about the problems he’s had with the green and wishing he had never gotten involved in the project

  3. allprogreens

    allprogreens LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 503

    There are companies that show alot of different ways to install a cup, as well as, a synthetic green.

    We are the only manufacturer that field tests installation improvements and marketing programs before we release them to our contractors. We have a 1/2 acre at our facility we use to field test our products and and products of competitors.

    A PVC pipe has to be concreted into the ground. Then the cup is inserted into the PVC pipe. If the cup is not secure, then resistance when you pull on the flag will pull the cup out of your base.

    The cup cutter will work for a golf course but not on a synthetic green. You have to have a way to secure the cup.

    I have heard of guys trying the same cup cutter technique and then trying to secure the cup with landscape staples through the vents in the bottom of the cups. This is a temporary fix and doesn't look visually pleasing to the golfer picking his balls out of the cups.

    When the cup is inserted into the PVC pipe, it is a tight fit and takes alittle effort to adjust it up or down. This is the best way to do a cup installation.

    We are always improving our product, installation, and marketing. To give you an idea, we have come up with a way to reduce to labor of sweeping in the infill by half. This technique alone saves contractors hundreds of Dollar$. Another technique increases the hardness of the base after compaction so you never have a problem with the base shifting, moving, or getting loose.

    How do we make these improvements - We are ALWAYS, ALWAYS field testing. We want to eliminate any reason for a call-back.

    By no means am I saying we know it all. In fact, we are always learning ways to make the installation easier and faster so contractors can get in, get out, and get paid quickly.

    Your asking a good question. I hear from contractors and homeowners, every week, that have bought another company's green and are having problems like this.

    All Pro Greens

  4. What happened to the first part of his question? I understand if you don't want to address this sort of question on a public forum..however, it would benefit those of us that are intending to sell your greens..or at least are considering hear the answer. I saw it posted very early this morning, and it appears you have edited his original question and sidestepped it.

    I understand if you have done this, however, I am interested in the answer. Perhaps he is just trying to cause trouble...but I am still curious.

    Thanks for your contributions, thanks for the free seminar...I am considering coming to GA for the installation certification. Thanks again.
  5. Rexx

    Rexx LawnSite Member
    from SW
    Posts: 2

    Chris, I was hoping you could address the first part of my question as well? For you to come in and delete that seems a little odd.

    If you want to say a nylon green will fail, I'm ok with that...but a company like Putting Greens Direct seem to have no problems with nylon. Are they using a special nylon? Finally, you don't have to reply trying to sell me on your business or products. Promotion is why your I suppose I understand you promoting. I'm a pretty educated person when it comes to putting green surfaces and I know how the business works in manufacturing.
  6. allprogreens

    allprogreens LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 503

    I can only tell you first hand that we get calls from homeowners and contractors every week that have nlyon greens that have failed within a year.

    The company you mentioned, Putting Greens Direct, has changed thier name. Why would a company that has been in business for several years that has spent alot of time, money and effort to "Brand" their name suddenly change thier name? You can draw your own conclusions.

    Many companies have a mission statement. Few have a mission.

    Our goal is to provide as much information as posssible so you can make an informed and educated decision and help you to make good, wise, solid business decisions instead of costly mistakes.​

    What you do with that information is your choice.

    All Pro Greens

  7. I noticed syn lawn before....they have both nylon and poly....

    as a guy trying to make an informed decision on which companty to purchase materials from...there is a lot of "he said, she said" going on....ultimately the decision will be based on the company as well as the product. Who can take care of me the best.

    That is the toughest part of the decision....and the research can become time consuming and costly...any suggestions? Finding guys who have installed greens is tough for some reason...not many out there i suppose.
  8. allprogreens

    allprogreens LawnSite Senior Member
    Posts: 503

    Your correct
    There is alot of false, half truths, and misinformation in the industry

    Compare all the information we provide to all others.
    We make the all information available to you for FREE

    Our philosophy is simple:
    We are not successful until your successful first.
    Meaning we are not successful until you sell a green first, then call us to place an order.

    We have seen contractors trying to "cut corners" by purchasing another company's cheaper product. Then have to replace the product and/or refund the money back to the customer. It is not worth it, in my mind, to save 5 cents a square foot on a project that may cost you thousands in the long run with headaches, hassles, call-backs, and rip outs.

    A cheaper costing product = a cheaper quality product - which will show up in the performance of the green​

    There is a lot of money to be made with this product
    provided there is a quality product and installation ​

    Would another turf company provide all the information we have provided in this forum? Probably not.


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