Question for FX users

Discussion in 'Landscape Lighting' started by irrig8r, Dec 4, 2007.

  1. Pro-Scapes

    Pro-Scapes LawnSite Platinum Member
    Posts: 4,181

    Perhaps its like the Regulator stakes minus the regulators. Some RSL fixtures come with internal regulators in the stakes. used em 1 time on a special job for my dist. They worked... all lights had 11.5v with 15v on the mains... no idea how they are holding up I have not been back to see the job in 2 years.

     
  2. JoeyD

    JoeyD LawnSite Silver Member
    Posts: 2,933

    ETL...EDISON TESTING LABRATORIES........Thats right, it was started by Thoms Edison. Pack that in your pipe and smoke it all those guys who say ETL is not credible.

    James, whoever is making this decision is going to make thigns really hard for you guys to obtain products. See we have all of our products labeled with a small little US and a C on our ETL labeling. That signifies it is tested to both US and Canadian standards. So toa degree we will still be sold in Canada unless they tell ETL, UL, and ARL that the C is now meaningless. If I am you I woukld make a stink. I dont know how many manufacturers are going to be willing to put all of their products through a CSA testing (which would cost thousands and thousands of dollars to do) for a smaller Canadian market. In reality you the end user may be the one who suffers most here in terms of your now limited selection.
     
  3. irrig8r

    irrig8r LawnSite Platinum Member
    Posts: 4,533

    I brought this up a couple days ago over on the new forum.
    ( www.landscapeconstructionsite.com )

    Testing laboratories and standards, and why manufacturers use one vs. another. UL, ETL, ARL, CSA.

    And why does a standard like UL 1838 carry so much weight with some... do the other testing organizations write their own standards for outdoor lighting? (And haven't I read a claim somewhere in this forum that 1838 doesn't even apply to fixtures mounted to structures?)
     
  4. irrig8r

    irrig8r LawnSite Platinum Member
    Posts: 4,533

    BTW Joey... 10 V lighting systems? Just to accommodate New Jersey? Or were you joking? (I'm assuming you're talking about LEDs if you aren't joking)
     
  5. JoeyD

    JoeyD LawnSite Silver Member
    Posts: 2,933

    Gregg,

    10v system, I am not joking. I dont have enough info to go into detail today.

    We chose ETL because they are closer, more reliable, quicker turn around time, and offered much better pricing then UL did. UL was all backed up, they cant get the products tested for weeks and they were way over priced. ETL was just a much better option for us. Esentially they do the same thing. The UL that does the testing is not the same as the UL that writes the listings just remember that. UL that does testing is the same as ETL and ARL that do testing. This is where people get all confused. They think if they dont have a UL sticker it is not safe, that is not true. Lots of major companies use ETL for their compliance testing. You can find this info on their websites.

    I attached a few pieces that may better help you undertsand ETL a bit better.

    As for UL 1838, it usually comes down to does the manufacturer make thier own units or not? Nightscaping I think makes their own units still but they are set in stone with UL 1838, they built their entire system around that restriction so they have to abide by it. Other companies followed suit. Although they do not make UL 1838 wire, connections, and light bulbs which would mean the system technically is in violation they feel that by limiting their systems to 300w and 15v they limit the chance of a meltdown. Maybe this is true in some respects but overall I can cause a meltdown with 12v if the connection is done incorrectly. UL 1838 is equivelent to Ford putting a govenor on your truck at 75 MPH. Fact is you can crash and be injured at 65mph just like you can at 120mph. My system wired correctly is as safe if not safer then a UL 1838 system. I say that becuase we preach inline fusing on your secondaries and we provide a slow blow glass fuse on the primary which will blow if the transformers primary amperage climbs past it's rating. Most 25amp circuit breakers wont trip until they get to 32 amps so go figure. (run your own test)

    In all 1838 is slowly dieing. Contractors are beginning to realize that 1838 was written with an entire system in mind like Malibu kits. Fact is we carry more ETL approved UL listings then any of our direct competitors. Go figure, especially since we have been the company who has been labeled "DANGEROUS".

    Nate always leaves it out there for you to call him if you have objections, concerns, or want more clarification. I haev no where the knowledge on this subject as he does. So if you want more detail on UL1838 and other UL listings please call him direct on his cell at 760-580-4980.

    Joey D.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Lite4

    Lite4 LawnSite Gold Member
    Posts: 3,104

    Thats great info, Thanks Joey.
     
  7. INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting

    INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting LawnSite Platinum Member
    Posts: 4,102

    Joey, I am with you there man... I don't want to see this either and we are trying our best here to convince them that as long as the 'other' rating agencies test to the CSA standard, then they should be acceptable.

    For instance ULc. As I Understand it, the little c behind the UL means that it is a product tested by UL to meet Canadian (CSA) standards. If this is correct then there should be no issue at all with using ULc products.

    The problem will be with ETL and ARL and any others... if they are not testing to the CSA standard, then they will not be accpeted here for installation. I am pretty sure that ETL does not test to CSA standards but rather to UL standards.... Its all pretty confusing. Perhaps we can get them to change and test to CSA standards and then provide a ETLc certification.

    Bottom line is, we may have to give in to our ESA's demands if we want to stay in business... This whole thing started with their push to limit LV outdoor lighting system to Class II installations (60W, 5Amps per cable max), and their requirement for all LV lighting systems to be inspected and thus installed only by licensed electrical contractors. We are making progress and hope to have all the issues resolved early in the new year.

    Next will be a LO/ESA/Min. of Training sanctioned certification for LV installers. This will probably take a couple of years to develop, certify and commence.
     
  8. JoeyD

    JoeyD LawnSite Silver Member
    Posts: 2,933

    James you need to look at the attachments. ETL does the same thing as UL as far as that little c (cETL).

    Fact is that the US writes all the codes and the rest of the world just adopts them and maybe tweaks them. I find it hard to believe that Canada is going to re do all the work the NEC has already done. It is probably just a way to get more manufacturers to spend more money having some other testing labratory say yep ETL is right, this product is safe. Now they slap their CSA on it for a hefty fee. I can tell you I hope the Canadians dont tell us that we have to have everything CSA approved. We would probably tell them to go pound snow!

    So again I will say as I have previously that our products are tested to canadian standards and our logo reflects this by carrying that little "c" next to it. Again UL is no different then ETL in terms of what they do.
     
  9. INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting

    INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting LawnSite Platinum Member
    Posts: 4,102

    Joey, look into this and I think you see that you are belittling the history and the role that CSA plays around the world. It is a preeminent rating association that is acknowledged everywhere, is highly professional and coveted. Many of the most stringent codes and ratings are developed by the CSA and then adopted by UL ETC ARL etc. That little "c" you find, means it was tested to the Canadian standard.

    There actually are some things, and people, in countries other then the USA who lead the world.
     
  10. JoeyD

    JoeyD LawnSite Silver Member
    Posts: 2,933


    "I'm a flag waiving, Patriotic, nephew of my Uncle Sam..." Johnny Cash :usflag:

    The USA creates all things great!! Except 4 cylinder engines! OK this could start a whole new war........LOL

    Not belittling the CSA, I do not know their history but my point is that I doubt they would require all companies to test to a whole new standard and abide by a whole new set of rules. The NEC is the formidable leader in fire and electrical saftey and protection. If we abide by those rules no matter where these products go in you should be ok. But I think you and I agree that the CSA requiring their logo on every electrical/LV product would be a nightmare for both you and I.
     

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