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Question since taking new job

10K views 46 replies 17 participants last post by  Chris J 
#1 ·
Steve, this is a continuation from the other thread started about your new employment over at Volt.

I have to start briefly, due to my leaving to Lightfair shortly. It is my hope that many will begin to ask questions of you that they've been sitting idle on.

My first question relates to what your new plan is for improving Business efforts for all contractors. You said that you needed some time and to have patience, but it would seem to be that there should be some idea or base plan in place by now....you've been involved with Volt for several months...assuming you joined them in January after your departure from Cast.

You stated, "I think it's helpful to point to 'emerging business models' (from other industries) so we don't get stuck in models that are obsolete due to changing technology. In a recent lecture from the president of the IESNA, he accused the lighting industry of being very much stuck in the past--especially compared to high tech industries."

I then asked if you thought that taking away the contractors ability to profit or gain mark-ups on materials (products) was considered being 'obsolete?' If that's the case due to Volt's actions against contractors, then how are they/we supposed to recover this overhead? Is it only through raising labor rates?

Maybe you have a plan.....as to how we ALL can gain that missing piece of overhead. I am speaking specifically to the fact that Volt offers its products to consumers directly and at about the same price point as the contractor.

You, nor anyone out there has been able to explain this to us.

I'll ask more later....thank you.
 
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#2 ·
Well, it looks like Steve might not answer this...he wanted me to switch threads, as we were off topic. And, nothing?? I've also had to change the title of the thread due to his name being included, which tells me it may be in the hot seat to close down/delete.

Let's wait and see until after Lightfair....I'm here now and supposedly Steve wants to meet up with me to talk more. I hope this is a run and hide move, because I don't intend to stop asking questions here and especially outside of this group.

I do find it all interesting that there may be a bigger contingent here that is already buying from Volt, which is why there are so few posts on this topic....over 1500 views and maybe 40 posts....mostly from myself and the few that have asked questions. Are those who support Volt (contractors) too proud or shameful now to answer any of these questions/thoughts?
 
#3 ·
Mark,
I respect your professionalism and ambitions to improve the lighting industry for the future. I mostly agree with your opinions.
Personally, I find your demeanor is confrontational and in-your-face. If you have an issue with Steve, take it up with him privately and not trash him on the world wide web. I am sure that each lighting contractor has their own opinions on this topic and will choose to support manufacturers/organizations with their wallet.
As you have mentioned before, we need work to establish ourselves as professionals in our industry. This includes quality design, superior installation, and impeccible follow-up service. Steve is just one guy who transfered from one company to another and I feel there are bigger issues that we can focus on.

Les
 
#4 ·
I had a great in-person meeting with Mark today. We discussed our different perspectives and expressed our mutual desire to support the growth and health of the landscape lighting industry. We agreed to work together to explore the best ways for landscape lighting pros to succeed and thrive - in the context of an evolving marketplace.

While the recents posts have seemed confrontational, my position is (and I think Mark shares this) that this discussion is not about any particular person or company. It is about the industry as a whole and involves all players.

As this (and related) discussions unfold, I look forward to contributions from Mark and other lighting pros who share a passion for this great profession!
 
#5 ·
Steve.....although we did have a great conversation yesterday and it's not a personal act against any 'one' individual, there has been a distinct blow by the current company you work for in this case, that I/we do have a problem with. So, from this perspective I would say we do not agree.

I did say that we could find ways that we can work in alignment for the same common cause(s), so that the profession can be advanced and preserved, and/or continue to survive as it always was meant to.

In order for any type of alignment or accord to begin the company you represent needs to act in 'good faith' to remove the pricing on its website. Those who are buyers will follow through and inquire about pricing, and buy if they feel it's a good value.

If you and your company are sincere about advancing the profession, then this request shouldn't be an issue, and the pricing will not be available to casual browsers and price shoppers alike.

Otherwise, there is no basis or foundation for continued discussions on this topic, as the current open pricing policy is in conflict with most full-service, professional design-builders of these systems.
 
#6 ·
Mark, the days of "For sale to the trade only" are long gone. Homeowners can now even purchase EPA Regulated Use products from places like domyownpestcontrol.com. The reality is that, whether we like it or not, customers are going to see pricing on the web, any business that intends to sell online would be stupid not to make their prices part of their website.

Even if you get rid of Volt, you still have companies like Florida Outdoor Lighting, Landscape Light Werks (who happens to sell Copper Moon, a company that has refused to provide pricing to end users), etc.

I understand your point of view but, I don't think it's one that's going to be in line with the world we currently live in. At one time, you could only buy building materials from hardware stores, electrical supplies from electrical supply houses (many of which only sold to the trade), plumbing supplies from plumbing supply houses that also typically only sold to the trade, etc. Now you just run down to the local Home Depot or Lowes and get whatever you need. Has it ended the viability of plumbing or electrical contractors? Of course not. They still charge whatever they need to for their materials to cover their overhead, charging $50 for a retrofit can light that I can get at Home Depot for $10.

I think it makes more sense to change what needs to be changed to survive in the business world we're faced with today than to try to get businesses to go back to the business practices of yesteryear because that isn't going to happen. If you don't like that a company sells direct, then don't do business with them, their target market is obviously not you anyway.

There will always be a market for HK, Vision 3, etc. but there is also always going to be a market for DIY materials as well. While I'm personally not going to buy Volt products simply because I want the support my distributor provides of same day warranty replacements and stocking material for me so I don't have to keep stock or order in advance, I will say that at least they're giving those hard core DIY'ers the ability to buy a better quality product than what the box stores carry. In the end, having better quality available improves the perception of outdoor lighting as a whole and that's good for everyone. No one can argue that given a choice they'd rather have a DIY'er use Malibu than Volt. I know that when I've dealt with those that have had Malibu quality systems they were pretty much unwilling to even consider landscape lighting again.

I know you disagree, and I respect that, but the world isn't going to change no matter how much noise you make about this and I honestly doubt that the contractors that do better quality work than the average DIY guy (and lets face it, most contractors in this industry don't) represent enough money in sales to sway any manufacturer, Besides, if we're honest, they probably aren't using Volt products anyway and they aren't going to give up the products that have proven effective for them just because Volt decides to take it's pricing off the website.
 
#7 ·
Bernie....there are obviously some differences or understandings here between us. One of the big issues here is that you see the DIYer as the big problem....who cares......professionals don't care about that. The DIYer is still going to do what they want....whatever.

The contractor supporting these practices is what is disappointing and a huge problem. They are supporting their own decline. Steve told me straight up that there are a bunch of contractors that are buying these products to try to save a buck. I'm sure many of them are right here on this forum. This is probably one reason why they are not speaking up.

Another reason is because they might not want their customer to find out that they are using this product that they themselves can get at about the same price. I'm sure they would feel this would be problematic.

Overall, yes.....'we need to find ways for businesses to survive', as you have stated. But, we all need to thrive in business.....not survive, but to thrive! However, when the contractor base is part of the problem....supporting efforts that will ultimately hurt them....how can this be? They are providing for an uncertain future for themselves and others by supporting this open-priced system.

What I suggest....is that those who are currently buying, apply pressure to get the open pricing removed. And, if that doesn't occur, to discontinue buying the product. When the pricing is removed and those contractors care to resume purchasing, then I don't have any issues with that.
 
#8 ·
You realize that plumbers and electricians buy stuff at Home Depot and Lowes, right? That really isn't any different and I would argue that our trade can thrive with open priced manufacturers just as those have. You can even buy high end brands like Moen at the box stores now.
 
#9 ·
Not sure Moen is considered high end? But, Viking and Sub Zero are both only found at authorized distributors....higher priced and higher valued. Anyways, the point is.....where do you choose to sit as a contractor and/or as a business.....if these guys wish to "settle" for the low and middle customer....then okay. Publicly posting prices is only a benefit to the manufacturer....
 
#10 ·
I thought I might interject for a quick moment...

Everyone is obviously entitled to their opinion and we welcome and encourage that. However, I also do not think that it is necessary to "call someone" out as such and, in the process, disrespect them, their decisions, company, etc., etc.

This forum is meant to be a meeting place of reasonable people who agree to a civil and positive exchange of ideas, opinions, etc. - a place where members should feel comfortable expressing these types of opinions and ideas. In accordance, members should not feel threatened or disrespected.

In being a member of a forum, members should be willing to be civil and abide by commonsense rules. And we, the moderators here on the site, want to preserve the atmosphere in a forum, to keep it as a place where all members are comfortable expressing their opinions.

When it is necessary to remove things from the forum, we do so to try to ensure that the forum retains its value to the entire membership.

Again, all are welcome to their opinions, but please remember and keep in mind what/how to go about voicing those opinions.

Thanks all, we would appreciate it :waving:
 
#11 ·
Michael,

First of all, I'd like to thank you for not just 'deleting' this thread or continuing an atmosphere of censorship. I have expressed this, as well as others that it is a problem that seems to be governed primarily for the benefit of those who sponsor this site.

I would agree with you and I believe that I have been "civil" in this sensitive exchange of commentary. I am not here to bad mouth individuals, but I am here to voice my concerns over the 'practices' and 'behavior' of companies and/or individuals. This should be voiced even if it is "uncomfortable." Should it not?

I would like to ask you, as moderator.....how are we to openly discuss sensitive topics that are a concern to a trade or industry?

I realize that this individual and this company (not trying to mention names) are feeling the pressure to not answer or to hide from the very things they have said or have done. I am trying to bring public exposure to these issues, so that the whole can choose for themselves what is right and what is wrong. Like you said, these are my views, my opinions, and they are based upon truthful actions. If this is an "open" forum, how are we to discuss these things effectively when a specific person or company has done them?

There is obviously a lot of interest in this topic. This type of conversation has an educational quality to it--it's an insightful debate.

I am setting this down (likely) for a while, as the person in question here has told me that they are going to be doing some big things to help contractors later in the fall. Why the delay.....who knows? We'll see hopefully in the next several months if this is true or not. I will continue to pick this back up at that time and especially so if there is no real plan of action.

Thank you for the opportunity to ask questions.
 
#12 ·
Mark, we have talked for years about this topic and you know where my thoughts are on all of this. However, it is not only the products that make something "high end". It is the craftsman that put the system together that makes it "high end". The usual suspects here are going to use the fixtures they know that gets the results they are happy with. 3M Wirenuts sold at the Depot or Amazon are no better or worse than the ones I get at my supplier. The 1/4-20 bolt that is holding the widget on my watzit in my car is simply a 1/4-20 bolt. It is the assembly of the structure that makes it high end. Maybe this is a battle to be fought but as I said before, open pricing has always been the case in the electrical field and as in electrical, we are selling a finished system. Or at least I am. I am not focusing on fixtures because I have researched what I use and I am more than comfortable placing these in my systems and charging what is necessary to do so.
 
#13 ·
IMO, focusing so much energy on trying to tell VOLT how to do business is not fair and to be honest, the OP is really in no position to do so.

We have used VOLT for LED lamps; we have found their service and products to be good quality. OUR new install customer base is NOT a VOLT customer, so it has no influence on how we do business. Any potential customers that would mention online pricing or purchasing their own fixtures will never be a customer of ours.

We install irrigation and charge retail plus for repair parts which anyone can find for close to contractor cost online. What is the difference here with VOLT?

When installing a quality and professional lighting system for our customers, price shopping or a price difference of a few hundred dollars does not make any difference.....to us at least.

We provide the customer with a proposal that contains one number showing the total estimate amount to do a complete system. We do not breakdown labor versus materials......IMO, it leaves too much out there for the customer to question labor or material costs.
 
#14 ·
Well, it looks like this is a dying thread now. So, it is or has been what it is. I know many do not appreciate or understand the position I and a few others are taking in this, but I have been at least willing to take up the charge. I've been in PM discussions for the past 3 days with Steve P., as he no longer wishes to openly debate these things. I understand and respect his stance there. Do I agree with it..."no." I believe that this will hurt him and his new company's image because they are unwilling to openly debate about it. To me, this is hiding from the issues. It's also a means to allow it all to dissolve or to sweep past actions under the rug. Whatever....that's their choice.

My intentions are and will always be to expose the truths to what is going on in our specialized trade. It's unfortunate that only a handful are willing to do this.

There's also not much use at beating a dead horse. Many contractors in this industry choose to see things in a short-sighted view. Maybe they don't understand how the actions or lack of action around us today will greatly impact us in the future. All I can say is that I would love to talk to each of you 10 or 20 years from now....to see how thriving and successful you are working with your business models. Time will tell the truth. I can't, nor can anyone prevent this from happening. I'm sure that is the point that most of you are thinking too.

Lastly.....in order to be successful at your business (financially), you have to surround yourself by successful people, methods and practices, and principles. If you believe that this company in question is going to bring you the success you are looking for, then 'best of luck.' You should just really understand the dynamics of these actions.....this company is an importer/manufacturer that is not a professional contractor/installer.....they are out for one purpose....to make money off of you however they can. Are you surrounding yourself by like companies or individuals (professional contractors-designers) that have proven experience? Most likely not, especially if you are going to allow a company like this to mentor to you....to show you how to run your business. It's no different than me going down to the local distributor and letting them show me how to be "successful." Yikes!!

Best wishes to all...hope this activity did help some.
 
#16 ·
Indy....I'm using Gambino's products, which are exclusive and no one can shop them....the best of all of these situations. And in other, lower budget scenarios, I've been utilizing some of the CopperMoon line. I do this because Doug honors the contractor profession and does not allow consumers to buy direct from him. I've used a couple of other products on occasion to perform add-on's or whatever on past customers from years ago. Most of my early days were spent using FX Luminaire. Over the years I've tried quite a few different things, to help me to learn the good's and bad's of particular lines, especially early on.

Also, I am not a fan of the distributors....I've tried many. If I'm going to work with one, then I tend to go for the smaller operation because they offer a better service. I just hate the idea of giving them almost 30% more for something that I gain little in return for. Most don't know the products....most have poor service and don't follow up or follow through....and most don't stock like they used to. What's the benefit?
 
#17 · (Edited)
Let's see. We can't use the exclusive line from Mike Gambino like you do.
We aren't suppose to buy from Volt because you don't like their sales plan. And, if we follow your advice, we shouldn't buy from distributors because they take away mark-up that we ought to be able to put in our own pockets.

No wonder no one wants to debate you on a public forum. It's a no-win for us. I'm certainly not going to try anymore.
 
#19 ·
Let's see. We can't use the exclusive line from Mike Gambino like you do.
We aren't suppose to buy from Volt because you don't like their sales plan. And, if we follow your advice, we shouldn't buy from distributors because they take away mark-up that we ought to be able to put in our own pockets.

No wonder no one wants to debate you on a public forum. It's a no-win for us. I'm certainly not going to try anymore.
That's exactly how I've felt.

I don't care about volt because I don't use them. It's just like sprinkler warehouse. If you have to justify you're pricing you have the wrong customers.

I always tell them they are welcome to do installs their self but it's going to cost you when I fix it. I'm not a fan of price shippers

And I don't generally mark fixtures up. I make my money in labor costs. But then again I don't itemize estimates either
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#20 ·
Come on Phil....missing the point here again. And towards these options there are ways you can make these things work. True, it's almost impossible to get Mike's products....however, Mike will sell to those who are professional, who act and perform in the best manner, and who understand the dynamics of all of this.

As far as other products....you can use what you wish. I never said Volt was a bad product did I? You are missing the concept of this whole thread.

And towards distributors....if you or any other contractor is struggling to pay for common business expenses and you are having to find the lowest priced products, then do so with a company that will give you an edge! This company has taken one of those edges away from you. Why does someone go to this company in the first place??? Isn't because they are the low-priced leader for a decent product? There are several lower-priced companies out there....they just don't blatantly sell at the same price to the consumer....for the most part. My comments towards not throwing away the ~30% in added cost to the distributor is to understand what you are getting for that addition. If a company is struggling to be profitable or they do not see a benefit in working with them, then why go this route? I don't benefit by using them, so I try to limit it or avoid them.

Phil....again, spin this how you wish....it's a matter of understanding what and why I am standing up for these things.
 
#21 ·
This is an old school new school issue. Honestly someone please ready the stickied post at the top of this forum. We never never discussed price. This was for a reason. It was to protect fellow lighting companies from letting homeowners and other end users seeing trade pricing.

I could care less what volt does as I don't use their stuff. But as I'm sure most would agree I would rather them not sell "professional" products for pennies. Who buys volt for any other reason but its cost. They obviously doesn't have an msrp. Just like cast sells 20 percent off msrp. Which still makes ZERO sense. Everybody jumps on kichler for having a 20 percent map pricing. If they sold product on their website then I wouldn't agree.

Mark as much as I love you bud most of the "active" members on here will never understand where you're coming from. Some aren't only lighting guys. Some are cheapskates lighting guys. Some maybe install 100 fixtures a year. Some mount brass surface mounts to pavers. Some will never know what its like to transform a 12k sqft home into a work of art.

Pretty much to sum this up mark. If this was 2008 this posts would of went in a Mich different direction. But the guys still lurking around here just aren't part of the good old boys club.

Also something to think about. Now that toro owns unique and they have amazing patent lawyers on retainer what does this mean to replica companies ???
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#22 ·
Matt....you are probably right. As far as Unique is concerned...it's too late for them to do anything about these patents. Too many have stolen these designs....use of their die molds and have developed other brands. This lack of protection opened the flood gates for sure...part of why we are here today arguing over these things :dizzy:
 
#23 ·
Hey S&MLL (Matt?), I did replace the tapcons with brass screws, covered them up with the surrounding limestone rubble so the surface mounts don't show anyhow. The technique worked great; fixtures haven't moved an inch!
Glad you're a fan. :laugh::laugh:
 
#26 ·
You do realize that each and every one of us is just a bit crazy, in our own special ways. I have never known any other industry, group, club, or faction that are so whacked as we are. Passion has a so many ways of leaking out it would appear.

Mark: Carry on fighting your fight, in your own special way. I get it, and a few others do as well, although I think at times you are trying to stuff a heard of elephants into a sack. Your underlying motivations and principals are admirable, even if we don't completely agree on your approach or methods.

Manufacturers & Vendors who are selling direct / discounting to the public: Best of luck to you I guess. You won't be seeing any INTEGRA dollars coming your way. I would hope that all the rest of the professionals out there follow suit. You simply cannot have it both ways. No need to name them here as we all know who they are. Thankfully there are so many others out there making quality products and supporting the pros who are the real drivers of this industry.

To the AOLP and the Contractors who support Manufacturers of unlisted fixtures and components: Give your head a shake and wake up! There is nothing professional about buying and installing unlisted electrical devices and it is technically illegal to do so! Why we have a Professional Trade Association that does not set minimum requirements for membership is beyond me. Surely as a private association they can set requirements for membership? Sell unlisted products to our members = not allowed to join. Simple. To the contractors that use this crap... you are only putting everything you are working so hard to attain at risk.

Designers and Contractors who are installing 'cheap', low cost, 'retail quality' products that are so widely available from online discounters / and those of you who are working on a "time + materials" or labour basis only: Best of luck to you as well. My bet is you are not in this for the long haul, and when the going gets tough (and it will... it always does..) you will be the ones going.... I just wish you would all work harder at installing better quality products in better designed and installed systems. Quite frankly, I am getting really tired of coming by in a year or two and pulling out your crap. It does nothing for you in the long run and only stains this industry for the rest of us.

I say this with peace and love. :)
 
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