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The green industry's biggest flops/mistakes/regrets?

39K views 94 replies 53 participants last post by  greendoctor 
#1 ·
I thought this would be a good discussion, as in most industries, each manufacturer has one or two product roll-outs or strategies that leaves you wondering what they were thinking (i.e. 4-cylinder Camaro in the 1980s').

1.) John Deere's 800-series. As a runner-up, I might add the decision to put the JD emblem on Lowe's/Home Depot-grade junk lawn tractors and spoil a great company's reputation for quality.

2.) Lawn-Boy's discontinuance of the 2-cycle push (or self-propel) mower. These things were legendary. They could at least make a decent four-stroke push mower if the decision was really emissions-driven, but they can't even do that. The Insight series of push mowers was junk, as are the latest models that the new parent company (Toro, I believe?) is selling. Honestly, how hard is it to put a proven homeowner's grade engine on a sturdy deck with a blade under it?

3.) Stihl gas caps. Over-engineered, insufficiently tested. I'm tempted to add 4-mix to this one, as a lot of people feel that Stihl bailed out on the two-stroke market while the competition was finding ways to still make powerful, reliable equipment that met emissions requirements for people who don't want to worry about valves or making an already heavy machine weigh even more. They do make the best chain saws though, hands down.

4.) As far as the industry as a whole goes, I'm going to add the EPA's CARB gas cans. What a joke. Have the people writing the laws actually had to use one of these cans themselves? There is no reason why a simple plastic gas can in the 21st century should have safety locks or vapor control devices (unless they actually didn't cause you to spill more fuel than a traditional fuel can).

5.) Ethanol! I don't think we've seen the tip of the iceberg with this stuff's propensity to degrade engine and fuel system components, either in the green or the automotive industry. When enough people realize that it's just welfare for mega-farms in a handful of politically-connected states, we'll end this nonsense.
 
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#27 ·
My trimmer is a Stihl 4-mix with the flip up gas cap. Best trimmer I've ever owned. Lower tone to the motor. Better torque. Gas cap is quick and effective. Yeah, it has a little learning curve. But it's a better cap.

I had a Toro t-bar WB and never liked it. Bought it new and wore it out. (OK, beat it to death is more like it.) I do like my new Exmark's ECS controls though.

Something I thought was the ultimate flub was the Puegot diesel in my 455. Nobody liked them, especially the mechanics. But mine's been so sweet. Purrs like a kitten. Much quieter than the Kubota or Yanmar they now use. I just keep the timing belt changed and it doesn't disintegrate.

Even though the corn fuel program wasn't a big success, I'm in favor of it. It finally got the price of corn to where my neighbors won't have to sell their farms. It's not been that long ago they were selling stoves that burned corn for fuel.

I can't think of anything that was an embarrassment to the entire industry. It's not like we have the Edsel to point to. That was unquestionably the worse car ever made.
 
#28 ·
Something I thought was the ultimate flub was the Puegot diesel in my 455. Nobody liked them, especially the mechanics. But mine's been so sweet. Purrs like a kitten. Much quieter than the Kubota or Yanmar they now use. I just keep the timing belt changed and it doesn't disintegrate.
Actually, a few WAMs could be on the list.

That Hustler with a 50' long drive belt was a beauty.

The Howard Price 1260 was a flaming piece of crap.

The 455 was a huge improvement, but it needed a lot of improvement as well. I always loved the deck belts breaking and taking out the clutch wiring harness. Even though I started replacing the belts twice a year.

Underpowered is an understatement.

4WD system was\is a joke.

I did love the way it cut wet grass, because of the slow tip speed it barely clumped grass at all, but it also had really bad lift because of that same slow tip speed.

I lived with ours because they were the best thing going for a long time, but I sure didn't exactly love them.
 
#29 ·
Oh, I get it! You are not fortunate enough to have ever operated a Walker..... With Walker's tilt up deck, they are just as compact as a Stander.... My 26EFI is only north of 800 lbs.... As for full view of the deck and ducking under trees, closer to obstacles and turning in smaller spaces..... This is what Walker is known for! And this is where I am coming from.... But if all you run is mid-mounts, I guess a stander would benefit you... I guess...
I've been running walkers and standers for years. They both have there pros and cons. The walker is the best bagging machine made imo, will never scalp anything, you can get the deck places that would impress anyone, super nimble and never tears up lawns, . It is also very slow ( but you never have to go over any part of the lawn twice), very hard on the back, nothing is worse then a left hand turn on a hot day, expensive to maintain and even with the deck flipped up its much longer then a stander. To discharge all day I'll take a stander over a sit down anytime. My back and body arnt sore a bit from being bounced around, I don't have to get up every time I pick up something off a lawn, I can navigate under branches and around obstacles with ease, I can spin it around at the end of a pass just as quick as a walker with no damage if done correctly, only takes up about 3 1/2 ft on the trailer, and although they arnt as good on hills as a sit down I feel much much safer on inclines with them. I used to run turf tigers, bobcats, wildcats, and lasers and replacing the sit downs with standers has been one of the best decision's I've made for making my day easier. I couldn't imagine bagging thick spring growth with one but then again I can't imagine cutting a 2 acre field with a walker.
 
#30 ·
Reading the thread about landscape fabric........................Landscape fabric. Biggest scam failure, flop, disaster.

Well, maybe second, Imprelis is up there too.
 
#31 ·
HaHa! Landscape fabric! Why do clients keep insisting time and time again after I school them on the truth! While I still disagree with you there Uponone605, you get props for noting the left hand turn on a hot day.... That, I cannot deny...... And also shows that you know what you are talking about....
 
#32 ·
Unless I overlooked it , did anyone list the briggs and stratton company? Yes the whole company. Also stamped steel mower decks( shouldn't't have ever been sold in the southeast). As mentioned earlier, I loved the fancy stihl caps. I loved being 45 min from home and having 2 stroke down my left leg.
 
#33 ·
In no order:

Cash for Clunkers
half crank engines (IMO)
Ethanol

Surprised nobody mentioned non-adjustable carburetors yet. I love my PB-250 Echo except for that I basically have to warm it up for 5 minutes.

For all the Briggs haters, I really don't get where you're coming from (please do tell me your experiences). I love my 675 and 725EX quantums on my Snapper 21'' mowers. I've never had a Briggs engine on a riding mower so maybe that's where they suck, but my briggs 675 is like 6(?) years old and has had one oil change and no other maintenance (I know, I know) but starts one pull and is powerful and reliable. More reliable than the GXV160 on our commercial grade Snapper 21''.

Maybe I'll think of some others later, I'm sure I have more.
 
#34 ·
Unless I overlooked it , did anyone list the briggs and stratton company? Yes the whole company. Also stamped steel mower decks( shouldn't't have ever been sold in the southeast). As mentioned earlier, I loved the fancy stihl caps. I loved being 45 min from home and having 2 stroke down my left leg.
Completely agree....I also hated the Stihl on/off switches on the chainsaws. Have you ever taken one apart and seen that mess...Finally ditched all my Stihl stuff for various reasons
 
#35 ·
up here in alaska, EVERYone uses landscape fabric and plastic edging.... i try to tell them...ummm we stopped using this stuff 15 years ago because it's crap and it doesn't work.... but oh no! the other 48 states must be dumb...because you know...ummm alaska is bigger so there!
 
#36 ·
Oh, I get it! You are not fortunate enough to have ever operated a Walker..... With Walker's tilt up deck, they are just as compact as a Stander.... My 26EFI is only north of 800 lbs.... As for full view of the deck and ducking under trees, closer to obstacles and turning in smaller spaces..... This is what Walker is known for! And this is where I am coming from.... But if all you run is mid-mounts, I guess a stander would benefit you... I guess...
. If you want your back to hurt than run a walker every day all day
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#37 ·
Reading the thread about landscape fabric........................Landscape fabric. Biggest scam failure, flop, disaster.

Well, maybe second, Imprelis is up there too.
I agree with that one. I can't count how many moron clients I've had request it for underneath mulch, useless.
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#38 ·
Unless I overlooked it , did anyone list the briggs and stratton company? Yes the whole company. Also stamped steel mower decks( shouldn't't have ever been sold in the southeast). As mentioned earlier, I loved the fancy stihl caps. I loved being 45 min from home and having 2 stroke down my left leg.
I don't really get the hate of stamped decks. Is it for regular stamped or any stamped. The Deere 7 iron deck is pretty darn good and its stamped. Mind you out of 7 guage steel + plus the 1'4 inch welded skirt around the bottom.
 
#39 ·
I don't put oil in my stomach so why would I put corn in my Lawnmower!!!!!!!!!! And..... great point about the gas cans.... I am lucky enough to have very generous In-Laws who bequeathed some oldies but goodies to me.. Here's another one that I know I will get slammed for but here it goes...... STANDERS????????????? Why? Don't get me wrong, there are some beautiful standers on the market that give great cuts, Wright and Gravely come to mind. But why? In all honesty(and I have done extensive research on the subject being in the industry for over 15 years) the only thing a stander does better than a rider is mow hills. And the only thing a stander does better than a walk-behind is give you a ride(sulky..... duh!) Yeah, I guess they free up a little bit of space on the trailer but enough to take the industry by storm? I mean, come on! Listen to this quote from the May/June issue of one of my favorite magazines, Green Industry Pros..... "Campbell is also seeing strong acceptance of the stand-on concept among his younger customers. To them, standing up is something different and "cool." And because these younger contractors are still relatively new to the business, they aren't as stuck on the idea of sit-down mowing." Huh? Sorry, but I don't care what age somebody is..... Productivity and comfort are paramount when mowing all day and just like "The Twindstorm Dually"......... This FAD will surely pass......
I used a stander a few months ago and will never get on one again. It was a piece. I just think if you're looking to increase productivity buy a ztr. I'm going to stick to a hydro walk behind with sulky based fleet. Lawns here are too small for z's, and even the big ones, that are few and far between, can easily be done with walk behinds. If rather buy a exmark 60" turf tracer with a proslide to get those big lawns done quicker than spend twice as much on even a 54" ZTR that sits in the trailer most if the day.
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#40 ·
Reading the thread about landscape fabric........................Landscape fabric. Biggest scam failure, flop, disaster.

Well, maybe second, Imprelis is up there too.
I only use landscape fabric for stone beds, does nothing but keep the stones from sinking into the soil for a few years. Other than that, I spend every mulch estimate talking people out of it.
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#41 ·
My trimmer is a Stihl 4-mix with the flip up gas cap. Best trimmer I've ever owned. Lower tone to the motor. Better torque. Gas cap is quick and effective. Yeah, it has a little learning curve. But it's a better cap.

I had a Toro t-bar WB and never liked it. Bought it new and wore it out. (OK, beat it to death is more like it.) I do like my new Exmark's ECS controls though.

Something I thought was the ultimate flub was the Puegot diesel in my 455. Nobody liked them, especially the mechanics. But mine's been so sweet. Purrs like a kitten. Much quieter than the Kubota or Yanmar they now use. I just keep the timing belt changed and it doesn't disintegrate.

Even though the corn fuel program wasn't a big success, I'm in favor of it. It finally got the price of corn to where my neighbors won't have to sell their farms. It's not been that long ago they were selling stoves that burned corn for fuel.

I can't think of anything that was an embarrassment to the entire industry. It's not like we have the Edsel to point to. That was unquestionably the worse car ever made.
I've been through 10-15 of those damn gas caps. If you don't twist it on all the way and lock it, then the plastic center breaks and won't secure the cap. The next thing u know the side of your body is covered in gas and half the tank emptied out on someone's lawn. Garbage, the machine is great, but the caps are garbage...
 
#44 ·
I don't put oil in my stomach so why would I put corn in my Lawnmower!!!!!!!!!! And..... great point about the gas cans.... I am lucky enough to have very generous In-Laws who bequeathed some oldies but goodies to me.. Here's another one that I know I will get slammed for but here it goes...... STANDERS????????????? Why? Don't get me wrong, there are some beautiful standers on the market that give great cuts, Wright and Gravely come to mind. But why? In all honesty(and I have done extensive research on the subject being in the industry for over 15 years) the only thing a stander does better than a rider is mow hills. And the only thing a stander does better than a walk-behind is give you a ride(sulky..... duh!) Yeah, I guess they free up a little bit of space on the trailer but enough to take the industry by storm? I mean, come on! Listen to this quote from the May/June issue of one of my favorite magazines, Green Industry Pros..... "Campbell is also seeing strong acceptance of the stand-on concept among his younger customers. To them, standing up is something different and "cool." And because these younger contractors are still relatively new to the business, they aren't as stuck on the idea of sit-down mowing." Huh? Sorry, but I don't care what age somebody is..... Productivity and comfort are paramount when mowing all day and just like "The Twindstorm Dually"......... This FAD will surely pass......
I don't know how it is where you are but in the Mountains around here, a stander is the way to go. 30% of my lawns can't be mowed with my ztr. There is no way I would stand on a velke for that long. With the addition of a stander my walk behind is only used on three lawns. I do understand where you are coming from, my dad mowed for 17 years and thought a walk behind was junk and too hard to use. He mowed all that time with two Scag STHMs (those big three wheeled mowers over 8 feet long). He thought it was the best thing.:hammerhead:
 
#45 ·
In looking back at this thread I feel I was being a little hard on standers.... I actually think that they are are good for certain applications and there are a number of companies that make nice ones...... I am man enough to admit when I might have made a mistake...
This one will shock you but its true. I just bought a brand new Bad Boy Stander. My dealer wouldn't take my Great Dane Stander in on a trade. When I bought my ztr they even took an old Craftsman garden tractor, but they were afraid they could not sell a stander. He said he only had three customers that owned some type of stander including me. He chose to take a broken down POS Kubota ZD21 that cost me a $1000 to fix every time I went to the Kubota dealer. Lucky me. He says that people that own standers can't leave without them and people that don't own them don't see the point. I am baffled. I started out with walk behinds and upgraded to a stander and am hooked. I do use a sit down every chance I get.
 
#48 ·
I don't know how it is where you are but in the Mountains around here, a stander is the way to go. 30% of my lawns can't be mowed with my ztr. There is no way I would stand on a velke for that long. With the addition of a stander my walk behind is only used on three lawns. I do understand where you are coming from, my dad mowed for 17 years and thought a walk behind was junk and too hard to use. He mowed all that time with two Scag STHMs (those big three wheeled mowers over 8 feet long). He thought it was the best thing.:hammerhead:
Dude I grew up on those scag sthms they pretty much were the best thing. I remember them before they were hydro stat too... Had gears to shift
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#49 ·
Green bark mulch :hammerhead:

Have to agree with landscape fabric, and with Briggs being junk.

Had one in my sander, blew out the bottom end with less than 700 hours

The one on our debris loader has been re machined twice because of a "defect" and has still gone through more than 26 push rods and the top end (mainly valves) has been gone through 6 times this year alone. Motor has less than 100 hours on it and will be replaced with a Honda next year :cool2:
 
#51 ·
I thought this would be a good discussion, as in most industries, each manufacturer has one or two product roll-outs or strategies that leaves you wondering what they were thinking (i.e. 4-cylinder Camaro in the 1980s').

2.) Lawn-Boy's discontinuance of the 2-cycle push (or self-propel) mower. These things were legendary. They could at least make a decent four-stroke push mower if the decision was really emissions-driven, but they can't even do that. The Insight series of push mowers was junk, as are the latest models that the new parent company (Toro, I believe?) is selling. Honestly, how hard is it to put a proven homeowner's grade engine on a sturdy deck with a blade under it?

4.) As far as the industry as a whole goes, I'm going to add the EPA's CARB gas cans. What a joke. Have the people writing the laws actually had to use one of these cans themselves? There is no reason why a simple plastic gas can in the 21st century should have safety locks or vapor control devices (unless they actually didn't cause you to spill more fuel than a traditional fuel can).

5.) Ethanol! I don't think we've seen the tip of the iceberg with this stuff's propensity to degrade engine and fuel system components, either in the green or the automotive industry. When enough people realize that it's just welfare for mega-farms in a handful of politically-connected states, we'll end this nonsense.
Lawnboys.....Man I grew up in this industry using them...first 19's and then 21's get use to the stagger design and they were easy to push. M- series....man i thought it was sweet to only have to poor pure gas. All you had to do was fill up the 2 cycle oil every blue moon. THEN OYSTER MARINE SOLD TO TORO!.....Toro decided to stop the improvements because they just bought the company and never had any intention of keeping the brand a viable compitor to their commercial grade mowers using the 2 cycle suziki engines.(they sucked!)The coup de grass was when they decided to sell in the big box stores. Weststar (CA OR WA UT NV WY AZ CO...basicly the west of Rockies) told toro to come and get their rail cars of parts and mowers and take a hike... The irony is even though they became extinct here in CA, the small blocks are still manufactured here in FRemont. There are still the Japaneses, Basque and Mexicans still using 20 year old bodies and replacing engines when ever. And yes....toro didn't want to put the money into getting this machine to meet c.a.r.b. teir III level.

C.A.R.B. containers.....the best one out their and worth their wait in gold are the NoSpill brand gas cans. They were bought by Honda and are a Honda item also. 5 gal can to empty no more than 2.5 minutes. Other than that everything sucks!

Ethanol....well until we figure out a way so we don't breathe the pollution that is out their, then there has to be some kind of solution their. Until you see the smog that looks as bad a tule fog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tule_fog), you wouldn't understand the need to do something about it. Have 2 kids with asthma and you'll understand even more. Fouling spark plugs....seen that and haven't had a problem ever since I started using at least 89 octane gas. As far as destroying engines....well that's left to be seen....Here in CA, we had more of an issue with MTBE in our gas. Shhhhh.....the chemical cleaned our air.....but it poison our water supply.....this is one time that you should be happy CA is more progressive about air pollution.....they(law makers and Air Resource Board) didn't believe the states scientist that there was a strong provability it would poison our water supply.
 
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