Sandburr and weed control

Elkbow · Mar 29, 2007

I am a homeowner, not a lawn professional, so I thought I would turn to the pros on this site for help.
I purchased a 1.15 acre house lot here in NE TX that used to be native pasture land. I have neighbors on all sides with established yards. The soil is very sandy, and the place is covered up in every southern weed imaginable right now. Sand burrs are completely our of control in the summer time, though I did not see any last weekend when I mowed it. I am sure they will be back in full force once it gets a little warmer. Late last spring (during the drought we had) I borrowed a tractor and shredded the lot, then disked it up and smoothed it out. We never got any rain, so the weeds really took over. Then last September, once we finally started getting some rain, I put out 50 pounds of Bermuda grass seed.
My question is what can I do to kill all the weeds, but not hurt immature Bermuda grass? While researching the lawnsite to see what to do about the sand burrs, I found this

Ric said:
Bill Williams

That is an easy problem to cure. Use Roundup 41% 1/2 oz per gallon and mist over the top of your turf at about 1 gallon per thousand Sq Ft. It will act as a growth regulator on the Bermuda and control the sand spurs. It might take a couple of application at one month apart. No need to wait until it is dormant at this rate you will not stunt Bermuda enough to worry. As far as pre emerge for sand spurs Roundup will not work until the sand spurs have emerged. The Pre emerge you already used should help control that.

I bought an ATV sprayer with a boom, and plan to put out roundup as posted above. What will this do to my young Bermuda grass? Will it kill out the weeds, too? What would you recommend I do? Should I spray it heavily with roundup and kill everything, then reseed? I hate to do that since 50 pounds of Bermuda grass seed it about $260, but I want to get some good grass established and get rid of these weeds. At what point should I fertilize? I bought a used Exmark ZTR mower during the winter and I will keep it mowed regularly. Also, I do not have a water meter set, so I can not water the lawn, I will be relying on the rain that Mother Nature brings. I will have to haul water for the sprayer.
Thanks for all your help!

RAlmaroad · Mar 29, 2007

Before you do anything--go to Lowes and buy the hose-end sprayer of "Image". It will have Sandspur (Nutsedge Purple or Yellow) Control on the bottle. One bottle will cover 8000sq ft. Stuff is a little weak but will work. Make sure you apply it well--I'd think more like 6K sq. ft. for the coverage and repeat in 4 weeks. Google "Image Herbicide", read and make up your mind. If you're not happy, then go with Ric's Roundup cure....Think about it!

Elkbow · Mar 29, 2007

The problem with that is I do not have a water meter set, yet. (No water faucet) The only way I have to spray will be by hauling water and using my ATV sprayer. I guess I could pour the image in the ATV sprayer with a boom if I can find the correct ratio of image to water. Thanks for your help, any other suggestions?

xpnd · Mar 30, 2007

if you are talking about sand burrs as in those painful pokey little things you step on, the solution is to fertilize. There is no chemical herbicide required for these or for roadside aster. Neither one can survive in moderately fertile soil. Their presence is an indication of very infertile soil.

If you are talking about nutsedge, then the product of choice would be Certainty. One app will control and suppress visible nutsedge for nearly an entire season.

Image as a broadcast turf herbicide to control nutsedge or other weeds in the turf is about as archaic as you can get. It was one of the first effective herbicides on the market for nutsedge control. It can severely discolor and set back the bermuda after application. Manage replaced Image as a broadcast herbicide for nutsedge in turf. It will not set the Bermuda back. Certainty is replacing Manage as the herbicide of choice for nutsedge control in turf.

Image still has it uses, predominantly in the beds where it is pretty much safe around many of the shrubs and bedding plants, except roses and azaleas to name two.

quiet · Mar 30, 2007

Exactly, xpnd. Don't use Image on bermuda now. It will really stunt or even damage bermuda when applied during the transition period.

Archaic? Well, maybe, but it's versatile for us backpack spot sprayers, particularly in the summer heat. And for a homeowner with bermuda, it can be the chemical of choice for general weed control in the summer.

quiet · Mar 30, 2007

xpnd - BTW, good to see you posting again! I always appreciated your insight!

xpnd · Mar 30, 2007

quiet said:
Exactly, xpnd. Don't use Image on bermuda now. It will really stunt or even damage bermuda when applied during the transition period.

Archaic? Well, maybe, but it's versatile for us backpack spot sprayers, particularly in the summer heat. And for a homeowner with bermuda, it can be the chemical of choice for general weed control in the summer.

Once you use Certainty, you will hold Image and Manage in contempt. Certainty can be backpacked but when you broadcast it, it will really clean-up a yard. It controls a lot more than just nutsedge and what is listed on the label. I broadcast app Certainty in the middle of July in TX and the Bermuda doesn't miss a beat. Try it you will love it!

Elkbow · Mar 30, 2007

xpnd said:
if you are talking about sand burrs as in those painful pokey little things you step on, the solution is to fertilize. There is no chemical herbicide required for these or for roadside aster. Neither one can survive in moderately fertile soil. Their presence is an indication of very infertile soil.

Yes, I am talking about those painful pokey things. I do plan to fertilize, but shouldn't I wait until I get most of the weeds under control? Otherwise I would just be growing some really strong, healthy, weeds, right?

Can a homeowners without a license buy Archaic and Certainty? What should I apply right now?

Ric · Mar 30, 2007

Elkbow

I would not recommend Roundup on Newly planted anything even if established turf is tolerant of Roundup. You must work with mother nature and not push her before the time is right. Mother Nature doesn't believe in Instant gratification. IMHO You shouldn't use any herbicide until your Bermuda is well established. Then because Bermuda is so resistant to Roundup, use it as posted in your quote of me, for economical reasons. Should you have Sedge become a problem, then use Certainty, Manage or Image.

Elkbow · Mar 30, 2007

OK, I will hold off on spraying Roundup right now. I would really like to start killing the weeds as soon as possible. What is the first thing you would do, and when should that be done?

If Roundup is sprayed at the ratio posted above, will it kill anything other than the sand burrs?

xpnd · Mar 30, 2007

quiet said:
xpnd - BTW, good to see you posting again! I always appreciated your insight!

I left the forum about the same time the Iraq conflict started up. At the time, everyone was waving their flag talking about helping out the spouses of deployed service people with free lawn service. I cautioned that this conflict would be a long and protracted one with thousands of causulties and please don't start something unless your are willing to see it to the end. It was extremely frustrating and depresssing that I seemed to be the only one who thought we would not go in their and "roll up the carpet" as we did in Kuwait. I am a former Marine officer. Hearing all the "Gung-Ho" talk from many people who hadn't earned the right to talk like that was very depressing. I became very disinterested in participating in the forum and just left.

RAlmaroad · Mar 30, 2007

Amen xpnd--I'd like to see Bush just leave since he can't run the country and can't/won't see the writing on the wall.

Ric · Mar 30, 2007

Elkbow said:
OK, I will hold off on spraying Roundup right now. I would really like to start killing the weeds as soon as possible. What is the first thing you would do, and when should that be done?

If Roundup is sprayed at the ratio posted above, will it kill anything other than the sand burrs?

Elkbow

It is a trade off between price and speed. You can end up with a fine lawn using Roundup.

Roundup at the growth regulator rate of 1/2 oz per gallon will get crabgrass at well as many broad leafs, however it may take more time than other herbicides applied at label rate. St Augustine is controlled or killed at that rate so are a lot of other grassy weeds. I have been successful at having no weeds in my Bermuda with Roundup. But I also apply it at higher rates and sometimes turn the Bermuda brown. It does come back. But I was doing this on commercial property where the value of a fine lawn wasn't as important as not mowing little strips here and there.

As a home owner you must decide if your desire for a great looking weed free lawn is worth buying multiply herbicides and getting the education to apply them properly. Roundup will on occasion turn your turf yellow for several days before rebounding. You would not have to cut as often if you spray Roundup at the above rate.

BTW Bahia turf in 6 pH soil is also tolerant of Growth Regulator rates of Roundup. In higher pH soil Bahia doesn't do well.

xpnd · Mar 31, 2007

Elkbow said:
OK, I will hold off on spraying Roundup right now. I would really like to start killing the weeds as soon as possible. What is the first thing you would do, and when should that be done?

If Roundup is sprayed at the ratio posted above, will it kill anything other than the sand burrs?

I would like to point out something here. Using Round-Up in this manner falls into what I consider advanced turf management techniques. From personal experience I will say that it works but this definitely is an off label use.

Secondly, it has been my experience that a homeowner armed with a back pack sprayer is a dangerous if not often a lethal combination. Diluting 1/2 oz of RU into one or two gallons and then expecting a homeowner to uniformly spray that over a 10' x 100' area is unrealistic. I've been spraying for a long time and I still find UNIFORMLY spraying that large of an area with a back pack to be a daunting if not exhausting task.

Ric · Mar 31, 2007

xpnd said:
I would like to point out something here. Using Round-Up in this manner falls into what I consider advanced turf management techniques. From personal experience I will say that it works but this definitely is an off label use.
Secondly, it has been my experience that a homeowner armed with a back pack sprayer is a dangerous if not often a lethal combination. Diluting 1/2 oz of RU into one or two gallons and then expecting a homeowner to uniformly spray that over a 10' x 100' area is unrealistic. I've been spraying for a long time and I still find UNIFORMLY spraying that large of an area with a back pack to be a daunting if not exhausting task.

xpnd

1st If you read all the supplemental label information of Roundup you will see this is label use of Roundup.

2nd This homeowner has a boom sprayer. Therefore he can apply at a calibrated rate better than a professional with a back pack.

quiet · Mar 31, 2007

Ric, that's great info and a great explanation and reminder of the full value of RoundUp. But I gotta go with xpnd on this one. I sprayed glyphosate at 1/2 oz. per gallon, hoping to kill a poa outbreak on a tif lawn a couple of years back. I did this in mid-January! Cleaned out the poa nicely, but the area of tif took a looooong time to break dormancy and recover.

That's asking an awful lot of a homeowner anxious to have a nice lawn . . . And bermuda's uptake this time of year here in TX (just after breaking dormanc) is breathtaking.

Ric · Mar 31, 2007

quiet said:
Ric, that's great info and a great explanation and reminder of the full value of RoundUp. But I gotta go with xpnd on this one. I sprayed glyphosate at 1/2 oz. per gallon, hoping to kill a poa outbreak on a tif lawn a couple of years back. I did this in mid-January! Cleaned out the poa nicely, but the area of tif took a looooong time to break dormancy and recover.

That's asking an awful lot of a homeowner anxious to have a nice lawn . . . And bermuda's uptake this time of year here in TX (just after breaking dormanc) is breathtaking.

Quiet & Xpnd

Tifway 419 is a hybrid of Common Bermuda and a lot different than it. You guys need to read and follow these posts if you are not going to mistake the information I am giving. The home owner's first post said 50 pounds of Bermuda grass seed and ATV Boom Sprayer. I have yet to see any Tifway variety that grows from seeds. I am guilty of not repeating the word common in front of Bermuda every time I wrote Bermuda. But I did warn Elkbow that this method does have it's draw backs with Yellowing or browning out turf. I also said this was more of a economical way to do it instead of buying several different Herbicides.

xpnd · Mar 31, 2007

Ric said:
xpnd

1st If you read all the supplemental label information of Roundup you will see this is label use of Roundup.

2nd This homeowner has a boom sprayer. Therefore he can apply at a calibrated rate better than a professional with a back pack.

Gee, Monsanto denies any and all knowledge of using RU as a growth regulator. While searching for a cost effective substitute for Primo, I came across some information about RU being used a a GR. I called Monsanto last summer and like I said, they denied any and all knowledge that RU could be used as a GR and would not recommend using it in such a manner

Having a boom sprayer only means that the HO can do more damage in less time and be less tired after he is through with the job. I think you are right though. I think the HO should take that that cute ATV equipped boom sprayer and for his first or second application ever he should try to make an application that probably 95% of all licensed applicators are too intimidated to do. I mean we haven't even talked about the unimportant things like nozzle calibration, ground speed, foaming agents, overlap or even the really minor stuff like this sprayer as purchased is probably set up to deliver gallons per acre and not gallons per 1000sft without changing out the nozzles or even if the OEM pump can manage the increased volume to put out one or better yet two gallons per 1000sft which is exponentially more effective than 1gallon/1000sft. If it is the common 25 gallon sprayer and the pump can deliver 2gallons/1000sft with a groundspeed faster than a snail's pace, the HO will only have to refill the sprayer and remember the spot where he needs to go back to 4 times during the job.

You seem to have allowed yourself to become offended because I do not agree that a HO with no experience in making apps, should be using RU in this manner. I think it is okay for us to use RU in this manner in turf areas where the expectation is not to have a fine turf appearance.

I think the best and longer lasting solution to the sandburr problem is improving the overall fertility of the soil and then addressing the three major weed problems, broad leaf, grassy weed and sedges with the appropriate post selective herbicides. Yes this will cost a bit more but then again the HO had the money to purchase an ATV and boom sprayer so I don't see where a few more bucks to get the correct selective herbicides would be a big deal.

Neither one of us is incorrect. But if it makes you feel better, I will admit that you are more correct than I.

quiet · Mar 31, 2007

Guilty! You are correct, Ric. I'm guilty of not following the thread completely. And my bad for advancing the notion that the risk on common bermuda is the same as on tif. Tif is much more sensitive than common.

Ric · Mar 31, 2007

xpnd said:
Gee, Monsanto denies any and all knowledge of using RU as a growth regulator. While searching for a cost effective substitute for Primo, I came across some information about RU being used a a GR. I called Monsanto last summer and like I said, they denied any and all knowledge that RU could be used as a GR and would not recommend using it in such a manner

Having a boom sprayer only means that the HO can do more damage in less time and be less tired after he is through with the job. I think you are right though. I think the HO should take that that cute ATV equipped boom sprayer and for his first or second application ever he should try to make an application that probably 95% of all licensed applicators are too intimidated to do. I mean we haven't even talked about the unimportant things like nozzle calibration, ground speed, foaming agents, overlap or even the really minor stuff like this sprayer as purchased is probably set up to deliver gallons per acre and not gallons per 1000sft without changing out the nozzles or even if the OEM pump can manage the increased volume to put out one or better yet two gallons per 1000sft which is exponentially more effective than 1gallon/1000sft. If it is the common 25 gallon sprayer and the pump can deliver 2gallons/1000sft with a groundspeed faster than a snail's pace, the HO will only have to refill the sprayer and remember the spot where he needs to go back to 4 times during the job.

You seem to have allowed yourself to become offended because I do not agree that a HO with no experience in making apps, should be using RU in this manner. I think it is okay for us to use RU in this manner in turf areas where the expectation is not to have a fine turf appearance.

I think the best and longer lasting solution to the sandburr problem is improving the overall fertility of the soil and then addressing the three major weed problems, broad leaf, grassy weed and sedges with the appropriate post selective herbicides. Yes this will cost a bit more but then again the HO had the money to purchase an ATV and boom sprayer so I don't see where a few more bucks to get the correct selective herbicides would be a big deal.

Neither one of us is incorrect. But if it makes you feel better, I will admit that you are more correct than I.

Xpnd

I must agree with your 95% statement. Maybe that is because 95% of the CPO in this country buy their certifications at their local drug store with no previous training. Maybe Al Gore would better spend his time trying to get other states to adopt Fla, Calf or New York's requirements. But then I have seen many CPO right here in Florida who have never opened a book since the day the passed the test. They have no idea of how to find information on the Internet, other than to come to forums and ask question of those who do. These same idiots don't know there are trade Magazines that have plenty of information that published each month and mailed to them for free. Others get the trade magazines and never open them. They just live up to the public perception that we are all just Idiot Lawn boys. But then you aren't one of those, you call your Lesco $ 14 an hour Counter Clerk and he told you "Monsanto denies any and all knowledge of using RU as a growth regulator" $ 14 an hour Lesco Counter Clerks know it all, Just ask 95% of the CPOs.

Have a nice day

Page 5 right hand column Bold Print "Activity Growing Bermuda"

http://www.greenbook.net/docs/Label/L54932.PDF

Page 15 section 12.3 Chemical Mowing

http://www.monsanto.com/monsanto/us_ag/content/crop_pro/labels/roundup_orig.pdf

Sandburr and weed control

Elkbow

RAlmaroad

Elkbow

xpnd

quiet

quiet

xpnd

Elkbow

Ric

Elkbow

xpnd

RAlmaroad

Ric

xpnd

Ric

quiet

Ric

xpnd

quiet

Ric

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