Lawn Care Forum banner
Cancel
Create thread New Forums

Permethrin VS. Bifenthrin

Jump to Latest
138K views 28 replies 13 participants last post by  americanlawn  
#1 ·
What are y'all's opinions of the two? How do they stack up? Curious to hear if your experiences mirror mine...

Obviously there are label differences, I know. But I'm curious about things like perimeter sprays, turf-insect kills, ornamental sprays.

Are there other products you guys prefer that are in the same price range?
 
#3 ·
LIBERTYLANDSCAPING said:
On ornamental sprays, both kill predators of mites.....Not good! Bifenthrin does control some mites (although limited) so I use that, or add a mitecide to my permethrin. My favorite it Imidicloprid for ornamentals (drench or foliar spray):)
Click to expand...
Sufficient turf uptake for Imidachloprid is two weeks. Trees is 4-5 weeks. Where do shrubs and ornamentals fall into this? And is drenching faster/slower/same as foliar application?
 
#4 ·
I use on small ornamental trees & shrubs. Foliar spray has quick results. It is a local systemic if you use a foliar spray. Adding a little N quickens uptake. I use both imidicloprid & bifenthrin. The imidicloprid greatly increases lenght of time leaves are protected, while bifenthrin gives a quick knockdown which is active as soon as you spray it:)
 
G
#5 ·
Permethrin has a much shorter residual vs bifenthrin. Also, bifenthrin has some activity against, broad mite, eriophyid mite and spider mite, especially if tank mixed with Ultrafine oil. If I were only doing lawns, permethrin would be the cheapest, but I do lots of ornamental treaments. Imidacloprid foliar can be absorbed by leaves in a day or less if LI700 is in the tank. It is a good idea to include this if you are doing water based sprays of either imidacloprid or the pyrethroids. Alkaline water degrades those chemicals. If Ultrafine oil is used, the active ingredients partition into the oil phase of the solution. I would like to try Suspend(deltamethrin) once my Talstar is gone. That is supposed to be some brutal stuff. I notice aphids rebound after using Talstar. Sometimes I miss the old chemicals: dimethoate, Dursban, diazinon, but I do not miss the hazards.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#6 ·
My 2 cent

Permethrin has the quickest knock down of any insecticide and I will only use Permethrin when going after stinging insects like bees and wasps. I have shot attacking hornets out of the sky as they attacked me with Permethrin. It also appears Permethrin will sink into my sandy soil better than Bifethrin to control Pyramid ants which are hard to get. But Bifethrin has a longer residual. Both are repellent type insecticides.

Green Doctor

I miss Diazinon the most. We are experiencing resistance chinch bugs in Florida and Dursban would be nice to have right now.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
G
#7 ·
I miss the dimethoate for trees and shrubs. That rotation of three different types of insecticides I use for scales and mites is because the politically correct stuff does not control the infestation in one shot. Ban an effective insecticide and I actually need to spray more. It was also a cheap and effective soil systemic treatment as well.

The quick knockdown of permethrin might have to do with its formulation. It is an EC. I have only seen bifenthrin as the water based suspension. Onyx, is bifenthrin EC but that is not very common. Whats fast but ultra hazardous is Vapona DDVP. Have not seen any insecticide with a quicker knockdown.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#8 ·
greendoctor said:
I miss the dimethoate for trees and shrubs. That rotation of three different types of insecticides I use for scales and mites is because the politically correct stuff does not control the infestation in one shot. Ban an effective insecticide and I actually need to spray more. It was also a cheap and effective soil systemic treatment as well.

The quick knockdown of permethrin might have to do with its formulation. It is an EC. I have only seen bifenthrin as the water based suspension. Onyx, is bifenthrin EC but that is not very common. Whats fast but ultra hazardous is Vapona DDVP. Have not seen any insecticide with a quicker knockdown.
Click to expand...
Green Doctor

Dimethoate is not totally gone, at $ 25.00 a gallon It still has a Nursery and Agi Label. I still have two jugs labeled for residential use. Onyx is now out of patent and being manufactured under the Name Bifen XTS. It is my broad labeled insecticide that I use the most of. At high rate it costs me about $ 6.00 an acre. The best cost factor I have ever had. BTW it does have a strong smell when first applied. I like that because the customer complains and also knows I am not spraying water.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
G
#9 ·
You sure know how to stash the good stuff. I know dimethoate is not totally gone. Another profitable part of my business is custom applications in nurseries. The trouble with using it is the 48 hour REI. That is rough for an operation that is open to the public from Monday to Saturday. But I still use it in the rotation, because I do not want entire complexes of pests that are resistant to the safe insecticides. Kelthane is still around, but it is for nurseries and farms only as well. It is also much cheaper than the new miticides.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#11 ·
whoopassonthebluegrass said:
Wow. I though I was doing good at $0.21/M for Talstar Pro... That's 50% more than you!

Is the Bifen XTS still labeled for all the same things? And rates?
Click to expand...
Whoopass

Bifen XTS isn't labeled for inside pest control like Talstar but other than that it is pretty much the same type of applications. However formulation is much different and High rate is only 6 oz per acre.

http://www.controlsolutionsinc.com/...sinc.com/data/products/other/136_Label-Bifen XTS _notif for name_ 10-19-06.pdf
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#14 ·
Whoopass

That price is about as good as it gets. But at .15 oz per thousand you can Treat 20 acres. Not a bad cost factor when you get down to it. But don't thank me just send money.

MN

Bifen I/T is basically Talstar formulation and IMHO at $ 55.00 for 3/4 of a gallon, You are being ripped off.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#17 ·
Whoopass

Bifethrin is the one chemical price that is going down instead of up at present time. With the high cost of Fert etc, It might not be a bad time to switch horses and start doing Fleas Ticks & Ants instead of lawns. My problem is my whole customer base is Fine Yards not just pest control.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#18 ·
Ric said:
It might not be a bad time to switch horses and start doing Fleas Ticks & Ants instead of lawns. My problem is my whole customer base is Fine Yards not just pest control.
Click to expand...
Here there's no market for fleas, ticks, and ants. Well, maybe a little bit of ants - but nothing to survive on.

That's why I'm looking at add on sprays. We live in an arid desert, but are a people who insist on having a wonderfully green lawn. We have incredible bug pressure here. I could sell eaves/gutter sprays for wasps to every home in town. I could sell billbug/sodwebworm treatments to at least 1/3 of the homeowners here... Box elder bugs can hide an entire house here when they come out to sun...

But my area is incredibly frugal. I won't call them poor, b/c that's a bad description. They're just honest to goodness, low budget, simple-lifestyle-living people. They'd much rather do things themselves than hire it out - even a VERY significant portion of the wealthy. It's a unique place. Rated a couple years ago as the safest place in America (and is always in the top 10 on that list). It makes it an absolutely WONDERFUL place to live, but not so hot for building a business based on luxury services.

That's why, after heavy thought (which is no small feat for me), I've come to the conclusion that I need to find a modest # of truly wealthy folks who DON'T want to do things themselves. Focus on all the ridiculously impractical landscaping that gets torn to shreds by the grass hoppers, spider mites, strawberry root weevil, etc every year. Keeping the poisonous, but prolific Hobo Spiders out of their homes. Keeping wasps from building nests on their kids playground. Injecting their constantly chlorosis laden trees with Iron b/c they got planted in a lawn that is watered and over-watered each season. Injecting their stupid quaking aspens with Merit b/c the bores absolutely decimate them when they're planted below 7000 feet-above-sea-level...

I just need to figure out how to pedal these services. I need to come up with an effective way to work these in when I'm already over worked. I need to somehow come up with the financial freedom to dump some of my existing work to provide me the time to take this on.
 
#19 ·
whoopassonthebluegrass said:
Here there's no market for fleas, ticks, and ants. Well, maybe a little bit of ants - but nothing to survive on.

That's why I'm looking at add on sprays. We live in an arid desert, but are a people who insist on having a wonderfully green lawn. We have incredible bug pressure here. I could sell eaves/gutter sprays for wasps to every home in town. I could sell billbug/sodwebworm treatments to at least 1/3 of the homeowners here... Box elder bugs can hide an entire house here when they come out to sun...

But my area is incredibly frugal. I won't call them poor, b/c that's a bad description. They're just honest to goodness, low budget, simple-lifestyle-living people. They'd much rather do things themselves than hire it out - even a VERY significant portion of the wealthy. It's a unique place. Rated a couple years ago as the safest place in America (and is always in the top 10 on that list). It makes it an absolutely WONDERFUL place to live, but not so hot for building a business based on luxury services.

That's why, after heavy thought (which is no small feat for me), I've come to the conclusion that I need to find a modest # of truly wealthy folks who DON'T want to do things themselves. Focus on all the ridiculously impractical landscaping that gets torn to shreds by the grass hoppers, spider mites, strawberry root weevil, etc every year. Keeping the poisonous, but prolific Hobo Spiders out of their homes. Keeping wasps from building nests on their kids playground. Injecting their constantly chlorosis laden trees with Iron b/c they got planted in a lawn that is watered and over-watered each season. Injecting their stupid quaking aspens with Merit b/c the bores absolutely decimate them when they're planted below 7000 feet-above-sea-level...

I just need to figure out how to pedal these services. I need to come up with an effective way to work these in when I'm already over worked. I need to somehow come up with the financial freedom to dump some of my existing work to provide me the time to take this on.
Click to expand...
Maybe you should change your business name to something more appealing to rich people.

Grey Poupon lawn service.

Mercedes Lawns

Rolex Lawns

Change your whole advertising position.

"If your goal is keeping up with the Jones, hire Chemlawn. If you want to keep up with the Rockefellers, hire us."
 
#20 ·
Whoopass

The Eve and Gutter spray, You are experiencing the NEED BUT NO DEMAND syndrome that I see all the time. I drive past Industry areas and see storage yards with 3 ft tall weeds. The NEED is there but the Demand for service is not. There are multi Need Market out there with no Demand. Creating the Demand is what TG/CL did years ago for the fine lawn business we have today. I have found at least 7 Niche markets that fall into the REAL NEED category. A vision that can not be executed is only an hallucination. I spend a lot of time looking for these hallucinations in hopes of finding the end of the rainbow. I think it is better for the small guy to stick with the markets that all ready have Demand and supply that demand better than any one else.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
G
#22 ·
whoopassonthebluegrass said:
That's why, after heavy thought (which is no small feat for me), I've come to the conclusion that I need to find a modest # of truly wealthy folks who DON'T want to do things themselves. Focus on all the ridiculously impractical landscaping that gets torn to shreds by the grass hoppers, spider mites, strawberry root weevil, etc every year. Keeping the poisonous, but prolific Hobo Spiders out of their homes. Keeping wasps from building nests on their kids playground. Injecting their constantly chlorosis laden trees with Iron b/c they got planted in a lawn that is watered and over-watered each season. Injecting their stupid quaking aspens with Merit b/c the bores absolutely decimate them when they're planted below 7000 feet-above-sea-level...

I just need to figure out how to pedal these services. I need to come up with an effective way to work these in when I'm already over worked. I need to somehow come up with the financial freedom to dump some of my existing work to provide me the time to take this on.
Click to expand...
That sounds like the people I do business with. They have the money and do not want to have anything to do with the maintenance. You know my position on DIYers. Most people here are hard-headed DIYers. Even though for a small 1000 sq ft lawn, I would not be much more expensive than if they were to try purchasing the correct pestsides and fertilizers. All landscaping is impractical here. A practical landscaper is all lava rock or in wetter areas, whatever grows. Most of the plants and turfgrass used in landscaping here does not belong in Hawaii. I never say that to prospective clients lest they go after the landscaper who installed the job. But I do emphasize that amateur hour is over when dealing with an installed landscape. I do not do add-ons, my services are all inclusive. The only thing I charge extra for is irrigation parts. I run the irrigation systems on the property. Not the "landscaper" or the homeowner. Very easy, because if that is something I do not have control over, I walk away from the job. Most clients have a PMP treating the inside of their homes for ants, roaches and centipedes. The technician is normally not certified to treat anything one foot beyond the structure. I am permittted to treat right up to the structure. There are few ants if I maintain tight control over mealybug, scale, and whitefly. Other than that, all it takes is a phone call or e-mail and I power spray the perimeter with Talstar or Sevin.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Crazy 4 grass
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
G
#25 ·
Great thread.

One question would be how is the control of fleas, ticks, ants at low volume (.5 gallon/k or less)?

I've seen many opinions on this. Some say you need 2+ gallons and some say low volume works fine. Since this is an inexpensive application I have thought about adding some in the tank when I do my early spring application but since I don't do blanket apps through the summer it may not last.

What is residual on high rate app? Would think you could get by on quarterly applications but your location would be the key factor. Here fire ants are only at the surface for 7-8 months.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
S
#26 ·
You can mix the two and make a really good insecticide spray. The best mix I've used is Optishield SC mixed with Bifen. Optishield is your permethrin and Bifen is your bifenthrin. This mixture works perfect for mosquitos as is safe as long as you follow the label because label is law. Probably the best mix of insecticides out there.
 
Lawn Care Forum
posts
7.2M
members
230K
Since
1999
A forum community dedicated to lawn care and landscaping professionals and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
Lawn Mowing Pesticide & Herbicide Application 🔧 Mechanic and Repair Business Operations Lawn Mowing Equipment