I'm working on my own lawn and i have a lot of bare spots and a lack of thickness overall. So, last week, I put some seed and starter fert down with a spreader. I'm wondering if I may not have put enough seed down. With seed, is it the more the better, or is it important not to overseed?
Seeding Too Much?
Smartgene
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I'm working on my own lawn and i have a lot of bare spots and a lack of thickness overall. So, last week, I put some seed and starter fert down with a spreader. I'm wondering if I may not have put enough seed down. With seed, is it the more the better, or is it important not to overseed?
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Seed:Soil contact.
You need to till the soil. (Even if it's only slightly)
An overseeder (Gandy, Ryan Mataway or Landpride) will till soil and place seed in the slit for effective germination.
Sprinkling seed on hard soil is fruitless.
You need to till the soil. (Even if it's only slightly)
An overseeder (Gandy, Ryan Mataway or Landpride) will till soil and place seed in the slit for effective germination.
Sprinkling seed on hard soil is fruitless.
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even when tilling in is it possible to put to much seed down?
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What they teach in turf management class is that you can put too much seed down. If all those seeds germinate because you have properly prep'd the site and have good soil contact, then your seedlings will be too crowded. Too much competition and a weak turf susceptable to stress and disease will result. There is a recommended seed density based upon the grass type that you are trying to sow. Also, this recommendation varies based upon a the establishment of new turf versus overseeding in an establing turf. Good luck.
jim
jim
I respect your input, as I do everyones when possible, but let's use our own heads and a little common sense. Based on what you're saying, then we don't want thick lawns at all because there's too much competition! Should we try to keep our turf thin? NO, we keep it healthy by providing the proper conditions and nutrients.
As with anything, you don't want extremes either way, but I think that this goes without saying. Smartgene, I think you are smart enough not to put a 2" layer of seed down.
The only conflict I see in opinion is that mine is mine, and Jim's is his teachers theory.
No offense, Jim, I understand that we are all here to help eachother, and you have helped me on previous posts on more than one occassion. I'm just not with ya on this one because of the reasoning behind it.
Hey Guys,
There is some basis in fact here. If seeding with a blend of two or more species, the quickest germinating species (usually Anual or Perennial Ryegrass) will likely establish in numbers the blender/buyer didn't intend. This may or may not set the resulting stand up for some maintenance problems after establishment. It depends on the situation.
Seeding way too heavy certainly DOES result in a weaker & more disease prone stand.
Shadey areas are the most dramatic example where the individual seedlings are all competeing with one another for the limited light.
The most critical factors of all though are proper selection of blends/varieties, site preperation (including fertility), & post installation maintenence. In the heat we're having in Metro NY right now, post installation watering would have to take place 3 or more times per day to insure consistant germination regardless of prep.
Steve
There is some basis in fact here. If seeding with a blend of two or more species, the quickest germinating species (usually Anual or Perennial Ryegrass) will likely establish in numbers the blender/buyer didn't intend. This may or may not set the resulting stand up for some maintenance problems after establishment. It depends on the situation.
Seeding way too heavy certainly DOES result in a weaker & more disease prone stand.
Shadey areas are the most dramatic example where the individual seedlings are all competeing with one another for the limited light.
The most critical factors of all though are proper selection of blends/varieties, site preperation (including fertility), & post installation maintenence. In the heat we're having in Metro NY right now, post installation watering would have to take place 3 or more times per day to insure consistant germination regardless of prep.
Steve
Jim is right along with how the seed is installed, drilling has better germanation than just throwing seed down. Grass seed planted 1/8" to 1/4" deep in the soil requires far less seed than say hydroseeding or broadcast seeding. Seed types also call for more or less seed, blue grass requires 5 lbs per 1000 sq ft while rye grass needs 7-9 lbs per 1000.
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Definitely seeding any grass type too heavily will cause stress from overcrowding. Just like too much water or too much fertilizer hurts the lawn, too much seed is also a no-no.
Common recommendations for a properly prepped and planted cool season lawn are 3#/K for bluegrass, 6#/K for rye, fine fescue or tall fescue. However, turf type dwarf tall fescues are best seeded at 9# to 12#/K. These numbers are for perfect planting, and are for viable seed. (If you're planting blue, and germination rate of your seed is 80%, you need 3#/0.8, or 3.75#/K.) You also need to know the germination success rate of your method of seeding; if your success rate is only 50%, you have to double the recommended rates.
And when using blends, you must be aware of the speed of germination of the different seed types in the blend. Tests at Purdue in early 90s showed that if using a blue/rye blend seeding in fall, you have 100% rye next summer if the rye part is greater than 10 to 15%. The rye germinates and grows so quickly, it smothers the later germinating blue.
Common recommendations for a properly prepped and planted cool season lawn are 3#/K for bluegrass, 6#/K for rye, fine fescue or tall fescue. However, turf type dwarf tall fescues are best seeded at 9# to 12#/K. These numbers are for perfect planting, and are for viable seed. (If you're planting blue, and germination rate of your seed is 80%, you need 3#/0.8, or 3.75#/K.) You also need to know the germination success rate of your method of seeding; if your success rate is only 50%, you have to double the recommended rates.
And when using blends, you must be aware of the speed of germination of the different seed types in the blend. Tests at Purdue in early 90s showed that if using a blue/rye blend seeding in fall, you have 100% rye next summer if the rye part is greater than 10 to 15%. The rye germinates and grows so quickly, it smothers the later germinating blue.
I think we've left out an important detail with respect to seed rates. That would pertain to a mono-stand of any type.
Straight Bluegrass as I sell it to sod farms goes down at <100 Lbs. PLS (pure live seed) per acre. There may be up to 2 years til harvest depending on field conditions & market pressure. When that is the case & the fields are well known with respect to weeds & being rotated properly, we can use even less. Time allows for weed control in the weeker stand & a timely fertility program that results in a good clean harvest long before the maintenance costs get screwy.
When seeding a home lawn with straight Bluegrass, client impatience would dictate more PLS/Acre & a more agressive grow-in program. That's fine. Too little seed will also require more herbicides & fertilizer.
Tall Fescue: In my book, anything short of 8-10lbs is a waste. I've sown as heavy as 15lbs/M.
My Favorite, Perrenial Ryegrass:
On dormant Bermuda golf couses we see the 7-14-21 rule.
7lbs/M Fairways
14lbs/M Tees
21lbs/M Greens
There is deviation to this so called rule, but I think we get the picture. Obviously, the thatch layer of the dormant Bermuda & the amount of rounds during transition all work with or against the budget to "assist" the super in making his/her decision as to rate.
I bare dirt seed with Rye here at the house at 15lbs/M generally. Because I prep, mulch, fertilize, & water properly, I probably get as close to 80% germ with 90%+ PLS as is ever likely to occurr outside the lab. The results are sweet. But in this case, I'm not inhibitting the establishment of slower Fescues or Blues. But the number of live plants per square foot is rediculously high. Not very practical for the real world, but nice all the same. The problem is, most folks won't pay what this is worth. I call it "EXTREME LAWN CARE". I live for those that can affod to pay for it & do. LOL!
Bottom line here is this. When using blends, stick to the recommendation of the blender or sales-rep. Adjust seed rates accordingly based on the environmental & site conditions & your gut insticts with respect to post-installation watering & maintenance liklihood. More good (& bad) seed jobs get really botched by inattention to watering details than anything else. Second most likely cause of failure is prep & installation practices. When selling seeding, sell a healthy dose of patience to your customer too.
I've seen some really bad jobs come in well just because the lucky SOB got some timely rain. Myself included here.
Steve
Straight Bluegrass as I sell it to sod farms goes down at <100 Lbs. PLS (pure live seed) per acre. There may be up to 2 years til harvest depending on field conditions & market pressure. When that is the case & the fields are well known with respect to weeds & being rotated properly, we can use even less. Time allows for weed control in the weeker stand & a timely fertility program that results in a good clean harvest long before the maintenance costs get screwy.
When seeding a home lawn with straight Bluegrass, client impatience would dictate more PLS/Acre & a more agressive grow-in program. That's fine. Too little seed will also require more herbicides & fertilizer.
Tall Fescue: In my book, anything short of 8-10lbs is a waste. I've sown as heavy as 15lbs/M.
My Favorite, Perrenial Ryegrass:
On dormant Bermuda golf couses we see the 7-14-21 rule.
7lbs/M Fairways
14lbs/M Tees
21lbs/M Greens
There is deviation to this so called rule, but I think we get the picture. Obviously, the thatch layer of the dormant Bermuda & the amount of rounds during transition all work with or against the budget to "assist" the super in making his/her decision as to rate.
I bare dirt seed with Rye here at the house at 15lbs/M generally. Because I prep, mulch, fertilize, & water properly, I probably get as close to 80% germ with 90%+ PLS as is ever likely to occurr outside the lab. The results are sweet. But in this case, I'm not inhibitting the establishment of slower Fescues or Blues. But the number of live plants per square foot is rediculously high. Not very practical for the real world, but nice all the same. The problem is, most folks won't pay what this is worth. I call it "EXTREME LAWN CARE". I live for those that can affod to pay for it & do. LOL!
Bottom line here is this. When using blends, stick to the recommendation of the blender or sales-rep. Adjust seed rates accordingly based on the environmental & site conditions & your gut insticts with respect to post-installation watering & maintenance liklihood. More good (& bad) seed jobs get really botched by inattention to watering details than anything else. Second most likely cause of failure is prep & installation practices. When selling seeding, sell a healthy dose of patience to your customer too.
I've seen some really bad jobs come in well just because the lucky SOB got some timely rain. Myself included here.
Steve
Whoa! Me and my big mouth.
If one of my guys called me on the radio and asked the same question, I would probably still give the same short answer, but what a freaken wealth of knowledge from the people on this site.
I learned a lot, even though you guy's sounded like a bunch of "Garry"s in your responses. Great thread, even though I was wrong.
If one of my guys called me on the radio and asked the same question, I would probably still give the same short answer, but what a freaken wealth of knowledge from the people on this site.
I learned a lot, even though you guy's sounded like a bunch of "Garry"s in your responses. Great thread, even though I was wrong.
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landscraper,
no offense taken. Thats what makes this site so great. You speak your mind and if you are wrong the right information will be provided. It can be harsh, but you learn from the experience. We all do. This is a great site!
Smartgene,
my local County College is offering classes in Horticulture. The head of the department is the previous University of Illinois extension service agent for our county.
jim
no offense taken. Thats what makes this site so great. You speak your mind and if you are wrong the right information will be provided. It can be harsh, but you learn from the experience. We all do. This is a great site!
Smartgene,
my local County College is offering classes in Horticulture. The head of the department is the previous University of Illinois extension service agent for our county.
jim
At this time I guess you can say I'm overwhelmed with seed types and amounts. But I do have a question about planting with more than a 15% mix of rye grass.
If the Purdue paper is correct then a 25% rye grass/fescue mix would result in only a 20% germination rate at best. It would leave about 80% of the seed ungerminated if planted in fall.
Am I correct in this line of thinking
???
Gordon
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4,452 Posts
Didn't see so I guess I will ask.
What kind of seed were you putting down?
How many pounds per 1000/sf did you put down?
How did you prep the soil?
What kind of seed were you putting down?
How many pounds per 1000/sf did you put down?
How did you prep the soil?
I'd like to see the entire Purdue study. The indication here SHOULD be that there was still close to the tags required claim % germination (PLS) but the losses were with respect to ESTABLISHMENT.
Germination rates are not going to suffer when seeding too heavy. The fittest individual plants will be those that establish. They will then crowd out the slower grasses (whether slow species or varieties). Germination rates probably aren't what they were eluding to.
Of course, they may also have encountered unusually cold weather that would halt or at least inhibit the Bluegrass if it came too soon. The resulting stand would then be Ryegrass.
Hey, if it weren't for Perennial Ryegrass, I wouldn't have a lawn. So who am I to complain?
Steve
Germination rates are not going to suffer when seeding too heavy. The fittest individual plants will be those that establish. They will then crowd out the slower grasses (whether slow species or varieties). Germination rates probably aren't what they were eluding to.
Of course, they may also have encountered unusually cold weather that would halt or at least inhibit the Bluegrass if it came too soon. The resulting stand would then be Ryegrass.
Hey, if it weren't for Perennial Ryegrass, I wouldn't have a lawn. So who am I to complain?
Steve
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2,103 Posts
Gordon, all the viable seed germinates, but the quick germinating ryes shade out the slow germinating blues, so few of the blues survive.
The Purdue test was done for the summer field day several years ago. Different percentages of blue and rye were sown in the fall in test plots. A few weeks before the field day, all plots were sprayed with Lesco's TFC. TFC (different name now by Riverdale, I think) selectively kills tall fescue and ryegrass in other C3 turfgrasses.
If I had the time, I'd look up the printed report we got, but I can't remember the year. Just recently heard a recommendation that rye content never exceed 20% for the same reason.
With all the rye killed off, the only plot that had a significant amount of grass remaining was the one that was only 10% to 15% rye. And that plot still had bare spots. 50/50 plot had a few plants left. Control plot with no rye was beautiful. This demo was to show us that rye actually shades out the germinating bluegrass.
If I'm doing a new or renew bluegrass seeding, I will use absolutely no rye. Around here bluegrasses do well, and ryes are ugly when disease time comes; I'd rather not worry about disease control.
Someday I'll get a customer who appreciates long term results, and the bluegrass seeding will be complimented with wheat seed, instead of mulching. Look below to see roots of a wheat seed 3 days after it hits the ground (that's a quarter in the middle of pic); find another plant to beat that for quick soil stabilization. The wheat wants to grow tall, and doesn't shade out the blue seedlings. Yes, the wheat looks ugly popping way up, but it is a winter annual, and will die out in summer heat; or hold off mowing when it starts to grow good in springtime, and wick with Roundup. This method was given up 70-80 years ago to cut the expense of seeding.
![Image]()
The Purdue test was done for the summer field day several years ago. Different percentages of blue and rye were sown in the fall in test plots. A few weeks before the field day, all plots were sprayed with Lesco's TFC. TFC (different name now by Riverdale, I think) selectively kills tall fescue and ryegrass in other C3 turfgrasses.
If I had the time, I'd look up the printed report we got, but I can't remember the year. Just recently heard a recommendation that rye content never exceed 20% for the same reason.
With all the rye killed off, the only plot that had a significant amount of grass remaining was the one that was only 10% to 15% rye. And that plot still had bare spots. 50/50 plot had a few plants left. Control plot with no rye was beautiful. This demo was to show us that rye actually shades out the germinating bluegrass.
If I'm doing a new or renew bluegrass seeding, I will use absolutely no rye. Around here bluegrasses do well, and ryes are ugly when disease time comes; I'd rather not worry about disease control.
Someday I'll get a customer who appreciates long term results, and the bluegrass seeding will be complimented with wheat seed, instead of mulching. Look below to see roots of a wheat seed 3 days after it hits the ground (that's a quarter in the middle of pic); find another plant to beat that for quick soil stabilization. The wheat wants to grow tall, and doesn't shade out the blue seedlings. Yes, the wheat looks ugly popping way up, but it is a winter annual, and will die out in summer heat; or hold off mowing when it starts to grow good in springtime, and wick with Roundup. This method was given up 70-80 years ago to cut the expense of seeding.
if this all holds true then whats the purpose of trying to slit seed a lawn with bluegrass then if it will never see the light of day?i've recomended this to some homeowners who have a re accuring funji problem, sow more disease resistant bluegrass into the lawn.as opposed to treating with funjicides every thirty days until its gone or tearing the lawns out and starting over. i don't know call me crazy but it sounds like a good idea,with all the new genetics with seed production done now a days they have better disease resistant blues out there now ,right? if the lawn your slit seeding is a crappy three year old sodded lawn with a reaccuring fusarium problem, better to just treat the dead areas with new soil and seed or remove old contaminated soil then replace with new dirt and seed,but slit seeding the thick sodded lawn with good cutting edge seed is useless,because the seed will never see the light of day in a thick lawn? or maybe cut the lawn really short for awhile? just wondering???????
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