I posted in the mechanic and repair forum but have not been getting views and I really need an answer to this question before a potential problem becomes worse. I did an oil change on my Toro Z400 52" 27hp Kohler today and found a sheen of glittery particles floating on top of the dirty oil. The engine has 800 hours on it, and I need to know if I should be concerned? Is this the beginning of engine failure?
C4chris70
I would want to be sure that it is infact metal and not something else that you are seeing. Are you sure that what ever you were putting the oil in was clean?
If it is metal in the oil and considering the engine has the amount of hours it does I would say it is verry possible that you may have a bearing going out. Any noises?? Knocks or anything?
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If it is metal in the oil and considering the engine has the amount of hours it does I would say it is verry possible that you may have a bearing going out. Any noises?? Knocks or anything?
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A slight silver sheen is normal...but its hard to say what's normal in your case.
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I dont do it on any equipment I have now. But on my race engines which I had 15000 in. I cut the filters open every time I took them off with a filter cutter. Then pulled the pleats out and opened them to look for metal or other particles. About every new engine would have something on the first few filters then cleaned up and nothing. Then if something started to show up you could bet something was going wrong in there.
I would think metal would be on the bottom of the oil and not show up until you drained it. If you know the container was clean get a mag. and run it thru the oil and see what it collects.
I would think metal would be on the bottom of the oil and not show up until you drained it. If you know the container was clean get a mag. and run it thru the oil and see what it collects.
The metallic sheen was forming on top of the oil as it was pouring into the drain pan. The pan was clean and the particles did adhere to a magnet but were about the size of dust. Particles were also found in the filter. The engine still runs great with no noises or knocks, but has been using about a quarter of a quart of oil every 2 days.
I don't think it's normal. After 800 hours, this is not breaking in, this is shaving off!!!
But, what can you do?!! Maybe look at it more carefully when the next oil change.
But, what can you do?!! Maybe look at it more carefully when the next oil change.
1/4 of a quart every two days. I have a friend who has had 2 Kohlers blow around 1000 hrs so I have been watching for any potential problems. If this blows or needs a rebuild at only 800 hours, it will be my last Kohler period. These things cost too much to need a major overhaul so soon. Starting to wonder if Kohler is still commercial grade.
A quart of oil every 2 days is not normal...especially at 800 hours. Are you seeing smoke at all?
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It's not using a full quart, only 1/4 of a quart every 2 days. Still not normal, I understand. No signs of smoke or oil leaks. Motor still runs great and still has plenty of power. Yes it is a command.
My last horizontal 27 command did bite the dust at 900 hrs. However, I have a 23 vertical command with over 3000hrs and it does use a quart every week and a half, and another 23 that has 2000hrs on it and uses about the same amount of oil. If it does go, tulsa small engine had the best price.
we had issues like this with our 17 kawi kai engines. we found that we were having engine oil failure, using the least desirable of the recommended oil grades by the manufactorer. we were uing 10w30, when actually the oil to use was a 0w30, synth.
i expect a big impact on longevity! so, bottom line is for the future, make sure to use only the best oils, it pays most times.
the 10w30 was very obviously breaking down fast especially with heat, in which in fact you should use a 0w40 in hot weather.
bad thing, the manual said the 10w30 was acceptable,, but really only to the amount of engine warranty basically . in fine print suggested the single weight oil is best or something like that after further review
i expect a big impact on longevity! so, bottom line is for the future, make sure to use only the best oils, it pays most times.
the 10w30 was very obviously breaking down fast especially with heat, in which in fact you should use a 0w40 in hot weather.
bad thing, the manual said the 10w30 was acceptable,, but really only to the amount of engine warranty basically . in fine print suggested the single weight oil is best or something like that after further review
So you were using a conventional 10W-30, and that was leading to early engine failure? What kind of interval were you changing oil? 100 hrs?
So why go with a synthetic 0W-30 as opposed to a synthetic 10W-30 or 10W-40 or even 5W-30?
I run amsoil synthetic 10W-30/30wt small engine oil. I've actually seen oil analysis on this oil out to 400 hrs in a 25hp Kawi and it was still within acceptable limits.
I don't buy that 10 30 oil is inferior at all. All cars use multi grade oil, no exception. If it is inferior, than cars would have broken down. In fact the oil are getting so good now that cars last 200K easily if you change oil often.
All my older cars last 200K and over even using conventional oil from just any gas station by just changing oil and filter every 3000 miles. If you use 30 weight oil in your car, you better worry about cold weather cold start. When the engine is cold, the oil become thicker and don't flow as well and you don't get the protection for the first minute and wear out the engine day after day.
Mower engines are not different from car engines, just keep changing oil and it should be good. In this case, OP might stretched the oil change interval or there is something plugged in the oil path and some parts are not properly lubricated.
As for different brands of oil or even synthetic oil. If one is so much better, then we should see some lawn mower engine last 5000 hour or beyond while the others that use convensional oil last only 2000 hours max. BUT so far, from reading posts, nobody last over 3000 or so. So the question remain whether it is a hype/psychosymetic or fact? Far as for me, I use Mobil 1 10-30 to stretch the oil change interval a little and be done with it, what ever comes......comes!!!
All my older cars last 200K and over even using conventional oil from just any gas station by just changing oil and filter every 3000 miles. If you use 30 weight oil in your car, you better worry about cold weather cold start. When the engine is cold, the oil become thicker and don't flow as well and you don't get the protection for the first minute and wear out the engine day after day.
Mower engines are not different from car engines, just keep changing oil and it should be good. In this case, OP might stretched the oil change interval or there is something plugged in the oil path and some parts are not properly lubricated.
As for different brands of oil or even synthetic oil. If one is so much better, then we should see some lawn mower engine last 5000 hour or beyond while the others that use convensional oil last only 2000 hours max. BUT so far, from reading posts, nobody last over 3000 or so. So the question remain whether it is a hype/psychosymetic or fact? Far as for me, I use Mobil 1 10-30 to stretch the oil change interval a little and be done with it, what ever comes......comes!!!
we were using sythentic 10w30 actually. at 50 hrs, oil and filter both.
the oil at about 500hrs started to show tons of metal in it and was exceptionally black and watery, very thin and broken downish.
we switched to amsoil just now and are starting 2011 with it, and many newengines so it will be taken care of from the start.
mobil 1 has straight 30w oil, we used it before we got the shipment of amsoil. it is synthetic.
very different and hence the oil breakdown. the multi weight oil breakes down under high temps in the air cooled engine arena, and therfore not only does the manual mention you need to check oil more often, i have further researchec and found that it breaks down much quicker and would require more frequent oil changes.
we change everything at 50 hr intervals though they all call for 100hrs
Maybe there is a point about air cool vs water cool. Anyone actually measure the operating temperature of air cool engines? I do not see any reason the air cool has to run at higher temperature than water cool by default. Engineers can always put bigger fins if that is that important. Or increase the cool fan size a little to bring down the temperature. Also, remember the cars with turbo or supercharger generate a lot of heat in the turbo or supercharger unit. Oil is the main coolent for those from my understanding. That is even harsher than the air cool engine. Water can only cool the temperature down to about 190 degrees. But local temperature inside where the oil touch can be much higher. Turbo cars used to have problems oil got cooked in the turbo unit when you switch off the engine and they require people to let the engine idle for a minute to let the turbo unit cool down. So the argument of multi grade oil breakdown at higher temperature is not exactly valid. I remember Mobil 1 did test long time ago about cooking the oil to measure the breakdown and proved the synthetics hold up a lot better than regular oil.
But bottom line is change oil more often, that is about the single most important thing. Use synthetic oil to extend a little but still change more often than the required oil change interval. The most expensive oil is not going to get rid of the dirt, grinds from running the engine, all the craps will stay in the oil until you change it. As I said, if there is a magic oil that is so much better, then why don't we see people running any engines beyond 5000 to 6000 hours. Maybe if you change oil much more often you might touch that, but never heard of that yet.
But bottom line is change oil more often, that is about the single most important thing. Use synthetic oil to extend a little but still change more often than the required oil change interval. The most expensive oil is not going to get rid of the dirt, grinds from running the engine, all the craps will stay in the oil until you change it. As I said, if there is a magic oil that is so much better, then why don't we see people running any engines beyond 5000 to 6000 hours. Maybe if you change oil much more often you might touch that, but never heard of that yet.
Alan0354
In this case, OP might stretched the oil change interval or there is something plugged in the oil path and some parts are not properly lubricated.
In this case OP did not stretch the oil change intervals. Oil was changed every 50 hours with filter each time. Oil used was Royal Purple 30w synthetic after the initial break in period in which 30w dino oil was used.
My theory is that these engine manufacturers are getting some inferior internal parts from China that they are using. These parts may look fine, but may not have been hardened properly. I have engines from 10 years ago that still run perfect and have fairly clean oil when changed. I also have a Kawasaki with 2400 hours on it that has oil changes at the same intervals with the same oil, this engine runs great and has clean oil.
In this case, OP might stretched the oil change interval or there is something plugged in the oil path and some parts are not properly lubricated.
In this case OP did not stretch the oil change intervals. Oil was changed every 50 hours with filter each time. Oil used was Royal Purple 30w synthetic after the initial break in period in which 30w dino oil was used.
My theory is that these engine manufacturers are getting some inferior internal parts from China that they are using. These parts may look fine, but may not have been hardened properly. I have engines from 10 years ago that still run perfect and have fairly clean oil when changed. I also have a Kawasaki with 2400 hours on it that has oil changes at the same intervals with the same oil, this engine runs great and has clean oil.
It's not the oil and it's not the oil temperatures. Any high quality oil will easily hold up to the temps that even an air cooled engine runs. For 100 hours and beyond. Well beyond.
Sometimes some engines just suck. Plain and simple. There are tons and tons of operators that use dino oil and go well beyond the maufacturers recommendation for thousands of hours. And the engines run and run. Of all of the people in this thread that are saying that dino breaks down too easily and synthetic is required, you're full of it. Not a single person here has ever had an oil analysis done to see if the oil they're taking out has been used up and is no longer providing protection.
All of you are just guessing.
Sometimes some engines just suck. Plain and simple. There are tons and tons of operators that use dino oil and go well beyond the maufacturers recommendation for thousands of hours. And the engines run and run. Of all of the people in this thread that are saying that dino breaks down too easily and synthetic is required, you're full of it. Not a single person here has ever had an oil analysis done to see if the oil they're taking out has been used up and is no longer providing protection.
All of you are just guessing.
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