I posted in the mechanic and repair forum but have not been getting views and I really need an answer to this question before a potential problem becomes worse. I did an oil change on my Toro Z400 52" 27hp Kohler today and found a sheen of glittery particles floating on top of the dirty oil. The engine has 800 hours on it, and I need to know if I should be concerned? Is this the beginning of engine failure?
Metal particles in oil
C4chris70
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mobil 1 has straight 30w oil, we used it before we got the shipment of amsoil. it is synthetic.
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very different and hence the oil breakdown. the multi weight oil breakes down under high temps in the air cooled engine arena, and therfore not only does the manual mention you need to check oil more often, i have further researchec and found that it breaks down much quicker and would require more frequent oil changes.
we change everything at 50 hr intervals though they all call for 100hrs
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Maybe there is a point about air cool vs water cool. Anyone actually measure the operating temperature of air cool engines? I do not see any reason the air cool has to run at higher temperature than water cool by default. Engineers can always put bigger fins if that is that important. Or increase the cool fan size a little to bring down the temperature. Also, remember the cars with turbo or supercharger generate a lot of heat in the turbo or supercharger unit. Oil is the main coolent for those from my understanding. That is even harsher than the air cool engine. Water can only cool the temperature down to about 190 degrees. But local temperature inside where the oil touch can be much higher. Turbo cars used to have problems oil got cooked in the turbo unit when you switch off the engine and they require people to let the engine idle for a minute to let the turbo unit cool down. So the argument of multi grade oil breakdown at higher temperature is not exactly valid. I remember Mobil 1 did test long time ago about cooking the oil to measure the breakdown and proved the synthetics hold up a lot better than regular oil.
But bottom line is change oil more often, that is about the single most important thing. Use synthetic oil to extend a little but still change more often than the required oil change interval. The most expensive oil is not going to get rid of the dirt, grinds from running the engine, all the craps will stay in the oil until you change it. As I said, if there is a magic oil that is so much better, then why don't we see people running any engines beyond 5000 to 6000 hours. Maybe if you change oil much more often you might touch that, but never heard of that yet.
But bottom line is change oil more often, that is about the single most important thing. Use synthetic oil to extend a little but still change more often than the required oil change interval. The most expensive oil is not going to get rid of the dirt, grinds from running the engine, all the craps will stay in the oil until you change it. As I said, if there is a magic oil that is so much better, then why don't we see people running any engines beyond 5000 to 6000 hours. Maybe if you change oil much more often you might touch that, but never heard of that yet.
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Alan0354
In this case, OP might stretched the oil change interval or there is something plugged in the oil path and some parts are not properly lubricated.
In this case OP did not stretch the oil change intervals. Oil was changed every 50 hours with filter each time. Oil used was Royal Purple 30w synthetic after the initial break in period in which 30w dino oil was used.
My theory is that these engine manufacturers are getting some inferior internal parts from China that they are using. These parts may look fine, but may not have been hardened properly. I have engines from 10 years ago that still run perfect and have fairly clean oil when changed. I also have a Kawasaki with 2400 hours on it that has oil changes at the same intervals with the same oil, this engine runs great and has clean oil.
In this case, OP might stretched the oil change interval or there is something plugged in the oil path and some parts are not properly lubricated.
In this case OP did not stretch the oil change intervals. Oil was changed every 50 hours with filter each time. Oil used was Royal Purple 30w synthetic after the initial break in period in which 30w dino oil was used.
My theory is that these engine manufacturers are getting some inferior internal parts from China that they are using. These parts may look fine, but may not have been hardened properly. I have engines from 10 years ago that still run perfect and have fairly clean oil when changed. I also have a Kawasaki with 2400 hours on it that has oil changes at the same intervals with the same oil, this engine runs great and has clean oil.
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It's not the oil and it's not the oil temperatures. Any high quality oil will easily hold up to the temps that even an air cooled engine runs. For 100 hours and beyond. Well beyond.
Sometimes some engines just suck. Plain and simple. There are tons and tons of operators that use dino oil and go well beyond the maufacturers recommendation for thousands of hours. And the engines run and run. Of all of the people in this thread that are saying that dino breaks down too easily and synthetic is required, you're full of it. Not a single person here has ever had an oil analysis done to see if the oil they're taking out has been used up and is no longer providing protection.
All of you are just guessing.
Sometimes some engines just suck. Plain and simple. There are tons and tons of operators that use dino oil and go well beyond the maufacturers recommendation for thousands of hours. And the engines run and run. Of all of the people in this thread that are saying that dino breaks down too easily and synthetic is required, you're full of it. Not a single person here has ever had an oil analysis done to see if the oil they're taking out has been used up and is no longer providing protection.
All of you are just guessing.
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i am not guessing, but do find it odd that the smaller engines where the only ones being effected overall. i think they must run hotter or something.
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I have always run 15-50 Mobil 1 in my air cooled equipment and hyd units and never had a problem for 12 years now. But what Chris says holds water. I always bought crankshafts from Lunati and they were a piece of art. Could have saved 1500 and got one from China. Everyone who went that route had trouble I knew. Just look at the brg's that come from China. You get what you pay for.
And the companies are trying to compete with each other. So if they can save a few bucks they get the cheap parts.
A rep. told me that is why they are using the one piece tranny now. He said it was 700 cheaper to build it that way. Not much built like it used to be.
And the companies are trying to compete with each other. So if they can save a few bucks they get the cheap parts.
A rep. told me that is why they are using the one piece tranny now. He said it was 700 cheaper to build it that way. Not much built like it used to be.
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im thinking about buying a z500 toro with the 27 hp kohler but after reading this and a few other things about kohlers im getting kind of hesitant about it. I use straight 30 on my kawi and it doesnt burn any oil at all. Check it everytime before i turn on the mower. I didnt know mobil 1 made a synth straight 30 but will definately check that out for this season.
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I am not defending the engine, just the oil. I just don't think oil is the problem if you change it regularly and 10 30 is just as good. Bad engine is bad engine, no other way to put it!!!! I think it is important to check the label who make the engine.
My kohler engines get 10/30 oil and kawasaki and briggs get 30 weight. When I buy oil I buy it when they run a sale on it. I don't care if it is Supertech brand from Wal-mart or Castrol. I don't put additives or synthetic oil in them. Plain ole fossil oil, whether it is Quaker State, Texaco, etc......Some engines I get make it to 900 to 1000 hrs, some to 3000+hrs. I am personally too cheap to run synthetics, except for the hydro system.
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What brands only get 900 to 1000 hours? What brand get to 3000 hours? I guess that is a more valid question. I believe if you change oil often enough, dino oil work just as good. My cars proofed this. I just took them in any gas station to have oil change. I just specified 10 40. I use Mobil 1 now just to stretch beyond 3000 miles oil change a little. I still won't go over 5000 or every half a year though.
I really wonder what makes the difference, because I have a 15hp Kawi with 1600 hrs, oil change every 100 hrs, has had regular 10W30 most of its life, and is still running great.
By the way, what viscosity oil are you using from Amsoil this year.
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would have to look, i might post a link later
My worst experiences is the 31 horizontal Briggs Vanguard 770hrs and 1100hrs and Kohler horizontal command 27 = 900hrs. I have gotten great engine life out of a few Kohler 23 command verticals 3000+hrs still going , briggs diesel 2500+hrs still going.
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http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ase.aspx
here is a link to the oil, the 10w30 listing is there to show it is acceptable for use in those applications as well, but is actually only a single viscosity 30w oil.
made specific for small 4 stroke air cooled hot engines.
here is a link to the oil, the 10w30 listing is there to show it is acceptable for use in those applications as well, but is actually only a single viscosity 30w oil.
made specific for small 4 stroke air cooled hot engines.
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Wow, that is not even a brand thing, it is model. Question is where they make the engines? Is China in the picture?
Okay, right, thats the same stuff I've been using for the last few years. Thanks.
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it is a good oil, and everything has mobile1 full synthetic 0w30 in it right now which is also very good. i feel confident on the oil thing for the future, the only other thing really is the air, and we do pretty good at keeping the filters changed often, sometimes they get packed, but not often. i think we can do better of course, and i think that better filters like the cannister filters on many of them is better to begin with and provide longer life.
i think that has a small bit to do with the failures of the 17 hp kaw kai engines we had. i mean, it got far more grit past the filter than any other ari filter we have had, and the pre kai 17hp kawi filters were not any better, but on occasion, maybe so. we made sure to change them often to brand new instead of cleaning(unless it is in good shape for the most part).
it is all a big picture, and i want to take steps to eradicate the issue, and both of those i think will
i think that has a small bit to do with the failures of the 17 hp kaw kai engines we had. i mean, it got far more grit past the filter than any other ari filter we have had, and the pre kai 17hp kawi filters were not any better, but on occasion, maybe so. we made sure to change them often to brand new instead of cleaning(unless it is in good shape for the most part).
it is all a big picture, and i want to take steps to eradicate the issue, and both of those i think will
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