Commercial Organic Lawn Care Program

Hamons · Sep 15, 2003

Commercial Organic Lawn Care Program

Lets talk about the benefits of using natural organic materials as a professional lawn care company where a solo operator might be taking care of as much as 20 acres or more.

Is there benefit to using fertilizers and products high in organic matter such as provided by Sustane or blends that include milorganite, yet still controlling weeds with herbicide?

Not blanket spraying the lawn every month, but spot spraying the lawn to eradicate any weeds?

Does the use of any type of herbicide totally negate the benefits of using natural organic matter?

Knowing this --

* People will not pay high dollar prices for a lawn with weeds
* People will not pay me enough money to hand pick weeds out of their lawn
* People will not pull the weeds out of their lawn themselves.

Of course, once the lawn is rich and thick -- from using quality organic fertilizers --- weeds become less of an issue -- but until then they have to be controlled!

What are your thoughts? If herbicedes are used are we better off just using the cheap Lesco fertilizers?

Dchall_San_Antonio · Sep 15, 2003

This is a great issue that cuts to the heart of the matter on weeds in professionally managed organic turf.

Personally I spot spray my weeds with vinegar as a foliar spray to kill them. Vinegar is a nonselective killer that does not work on everything it hits. For those plants it works on, it works so fast it will make your head spin. For the others, it seems to have no effect at all.

Whether you use organic vinegar or synthetic "Weed-b-Gone" or "Grass-b-Gone" types of products would be between you and your organic client. It is up to you to get to know vinegar and its potential to kill the weeds in question as well as all the popular weeds in your area. If you can stay organic with vinegar or a vinegar/orange oil mix, then I would. But I certainly recognize that not everything is affected by vinegar. I would approach the client this way.

This would be you talking to the client about a weed you know you can kill with vinegar: "We have a weed problem out on the south 40 of your organic area. The weed is oxalis. I know I can knock it out with one of my organic sprays but there will be a little overspray that might kill the surrounding turf. I'll be as careful as I can be to minimize the surrounding effect."

This would be you talking to the client about a weed you know you cannot kill with vinegar: "We have a weed problem out on the south 40 of your organic area. The weed is English Ivy. I know I cannot knock it out with any of my organic products but I can knock it out in a week with RoundUp or Weed-b-Gone. I would be very careful to not allow any overspray on surrounding areas, and I would follow up the spraying next week with a light dusting of finished compost and organic fertilizer to reestablish the organic soil components affected by the spray. The alternative to spraying herbicide on the English Ivy is to hand pull/dig it at an hourly rate of $50/hour, and I estimate there is 3 hours work out there." And you might add that compost is becoming a standard prescription for bioremediation of industrial chemical spills.

Did I get anywhere close to answering you? Using the spray on a broadcast basis can set you back on the organic program, but spot spraying really minimizes the effect on the soil microbes. And if you follow up with the compost and organic fertilizer (I like cornmeal and alfalfa), then you can really return to organic program immediately after the weed is gone. You'll have to PRE-determine how sensitive your client is to a slight detour off the organic program.

Green in Idaho · Sep 15, 2003

Originally posted by Dchall_San_Antonio
.And you might add that compost is becoming a standard prescription for bioremediation of industrial chemical spills.
.

David,
Do think the average property owners cares about compost being used for bioremediation of chemical spills? They don't even know what that is!

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Hamons,
Using spot spraying with selectives is a good practical approach along with organic-based fertilizers.

For one it save money by less volume of herbicides.
Secondly, it is not going to disrupt (or totally negate) the overall benefits of trying to be organic or 'low-impact' with organic fert.

There are also thing to consider too like irrigation and mowing height. Excessive irrigation can ruins the objectives of organics and no chems.

Try to go organic when possible. IF not always then step to the next level of using lowest impact method= spot applications.

dan deutekom · Sep 15, 2003

I would like to know where is it written that a product like 24d or Roundup kills soil microbes and totally ruins an organic program. Every thing that I have seen about this is hear say or unsubstantiated. I think spraying with a highly acidic material (vinegar) may cause more damage to soil microbes then synthetic herbicides. Any reliable studies out there?

Dchall_San_Antonio · Sep 16, 2003

I would like to know where is it written that a product like 24d or Roundup kills soil microbes and totally ruins an organic program. Everything that I have seen about this is hear say or unsubstantiated

Worse than that, I think it is all opinion. As I've said, there are as many flavors of "organic" as there are of "vegetarian." I agree that the occasional spot spraying with selectives should not negate much of anything in an organic program, but the client may be more tight-as*ed about it. I don't think anyone will argue that 2-4,D is as natural as apple cider vinegar, but the use of the product should be up to the client based on some alternatives. That's why I suggest you discuss it with them. Maybe you don't need to bring in bioremediation

. I'll take the hit on that one. I talk too much sometimes.

You may not agree with this next opinion, but I think what hurts the soil microbes the most is the repeated stress from continual use of synthetic fertilizers over years and years and never ever feeding them protein. I'm not saying they're wiped out; I'm saying they are stressed. Then if you spray with 2-4,D or RoundUp they get more stressed. Some will die, but it is nearly impossible to permanently wipe out microbes out in the open air. A follow-up with compost almost always replenishes the soil with fresh, unstressed microbes. If you start to feed them with a protein based fertilizer, you should recover completely.

Vinegar (commercially labeled as BurnOut) is supposed to be used as a foliar spray, not a soil drench. As for reliable studies, I'm sure they're there. I'd like to see a soil pH test before and after a drench with vinegar. The soil would have to be considered organically "healthy" with a normal, well fed population of microbes. The theory is that even the vinegar at a pH of 3.0 is quickly neutralized by the buffered humic acids in the soil. The questions would be does the vinegar make any difference at all to the soil microbes? If so, how bad and for how long?

dan deutekom · Sep 16, 2003

Most herbicides are a foliar spray and not a soil drench. Also the amount applied is very small especially when compared to organics. And wouldn't the same buffering action occur to the synthetics as the vinegar? Also it is well documented the effects of the soil ph have on the herbicide.

Grassmechanic · Sep 16, 2003

Expanding on what Dan has said. Both vinegar and 2,4D are acetic acid compounds. The acetic acid is what is credited for the control of weeds. If the acetic acid is utilized in a benzene ring (as in 2,4D) to be more effective, one could assume that, for control of weeds, less acetic acid is needed by using 2,4D than vinegar. Wouldn't less acetic acid be more beneficial to the soil microbes? If the answer is yes, then would 2,4D be the preferred product over vinegar for weed control?

GroundKprs · Sep 16, 2003

Thanks, dan d for asking the question for me. I'd like to see studies showing actual damages to soil microbes from synthetics. This is a main arguement used for organics, and again it seems to be not based in fact, but assumptions. 2,4-D is a plant hormone that brings on senescence (old age & consequently death). From the descriptions so far, vinegar appears to be a dessicant, similar to diquat or paraquat.

2,4-D is pretty much non-selective in its makeup, the selectivity is achieved by the dosage: a broadleaf gets a high, fatal dose while the thin grass leaf gets a slightly harmful dose; mix in high enough concentration and you can kill the lawn with 2,4-D. The stress on the lawn from 2,4-D and most other herbicides is on the desirable plants, not on the soil medium. Proper handling of herbicides mitigates the stress on the desirable plants.

As far as the synthetic fertilizers harming the soil microbes, I have seen the reverse of that in lawns. If you have a sand growing medium that turns to black topsoil at least 3" deep in 5-6 years, there has to be some good degree of microbal activity in that soil medium. Fertilizers cause aggresive growth of turfgrass, with consequent death of roots and shoots that contribute to SOM content. It is natural for turfgrasses to grow new roots and stems; any enhancement to growth will accelerate that process. And more SOM means more microbal activity.

It is most likely that this organic arguement against synthetics is based on fungicidal applications, which are rarely necessary on ornamental turf if proper cultural practices are followed.

Green in Idaho · Sep 16, 2003

Results of 2-4-D

A human given a total of 16.3 g in 32 days therapeutically, lapsed into a stupor and showed signs of incoordination, weak reflexes, and loss of bladder control [1,5,7].

That is from this site http://ace.orst.edu/info/extoxnet/pips/24-D.htm which I think is a reproduction of the MSDS.

I think I'd prefer the results of vinegar, thanks.

****************************************

Grassmechanic, nice chemistry lesson, but I appear to have lost my labbook some years ago!
Perhaps you can elaborate on the many different types of acetic acids and which one is primary in 2-4-D, other selective herbicides, and vinegar. Then a comparison of them would be nice.

Green in Idaho · Sep 16, 2003

Some good info on vinegar from WSU.

http://wsprs.wsu.edu/VinegarFactSheet.pdf

GroundKprs · Sep 16, 2003

The above post about the effects of 2,4-D is a good example of radical anti-herbicide mentality. Go and read the whole page he gives a link to. That page gives much info about 2,4-D. But the writer above picks out the only negative sentence in the report.

Further down in the page above: "The absorption of 2,4-D is almost complete in mammals after ingestion and nearly all of the dose is excreted in the urine. The compound is readily absorbed through the skin and lungs. Men given 5 mg/kg excreted about 82% of the dose as unchanged 2,4-D. The half-life is between 10 and 20 hours in living organisms."

As far as the quote above, how many are going to purposely or accidently ingest 2,4-D for 32 days straight???? And is 32 days a true indicator of CHRONIC exposure?

Green in Idaho · Sep 16, 2003

Groundkprs,
It's too early in the morning for me to be laughing this hard.... please help me out here.

""Radical anti-herbicide mentality""" ???

You will notice I earlier wrote spot application of selectives is a good practical solution for an LCO. ALthough spot applications of vinegar are also a good practical solution for those wanting more of the organic method. The WSU doc supports the 20% not being required to be listed as pesticide which certainly opens questions about the licensing requirement per individual state requirements. It furthers illustrates the lack of appropriate warning labels on th e20% solution.

*************
Your statement of "But the writer above picks out the only negative sentence in the report." REALLY shows a lot about your position.

Do you think that was the ONLY negative statement???

*****************
32 days straight??? Ask a chem sprayer how many days they are exposed to 2,4-D in a season. A 20 year career???? The issue not not likelyness it is "continued exposure".

I am sure smoking 5 packs a day for 32 days straight and then stopping is not likely either. But it is still proven that smoking causes lung cancer over extended exposure.

******************
And hey, perhaps Grassmechanic (resident chemist) can confirm your statement that ""2,4-D is a plant hormone"" ?????

woodycrest · Sep 16, 2003

""Radical anti-herbicide mentality""" ???

Got me crackin up too...thats a bit extreme isnt it??

woodycrest · Sep 16, 2003

let me turn that around....

RAdical anti-organic mentality....

Dchall_San_Antonio · Sep 16, 2003

Okay, folks. If none of the next three posts to this thread contributes directly to the originator's question about implementing commercial lawn care with selected use of synthetic herbicides, I'm going to pull rank and end the discussion on this thread.

I don't have a problem with the discussion, although on this forum it doesn't really contribute to the overall theme. All I'm saying is if you want to discuss this topic, please open an new thread so everyone who wants to follow it can find it easier.

dan deutekom · Sep 16, 2003

My understanding is that 24d acts hormonally also. But I am not a chemist. Reading the fact sheet also shows how safe 24d is. It is not fair or informative to pick out one negative line from a full study and quote it saying that is the reason we shouldn't use it. This fact sheet also states "The half-life in soil is less than 7 days [21]. Soil microbes are primarily responsible for its disappearance " Kind of blows holes in the theory that using 24d destroys the microbes in the soil when in fact the soil microbes degrade the 24d.

The WSU vinegar fact sheet states "7% vinegar solutions showed results similar to the ARS study at 5%, namely lack of reliable weed control" It also stated that all EPA registered acetic acid solutions over 11% can cause skin burns on contact and permanent corneal damage. They also have a 48 hour re-entry period requirement. Here is a link to the MSDS for Burnout. Dosn't give nearly as much information as the 24d link. www.biconet.com/lawn/infosheets/burnOutMSDS.pdf This lack of good scientific info is what makes me skeptical.

One thing about these discussions it gets me researching stuff

Hamons · Sep 17, 2003

This discussion really is the keystone of this debate for me.

Does professional and responsible use of pesticides compleytely destroy the benefits of using natural organic materials in the lawn?

This is different than discussing wheterh we should not use herbicides because they cause cancer ot because they hurt my skin or any of the other perfectly good reasons they are bad -- but what are there effects specifically on the microorganisms in the soil?

dan deutekom · Sep 17, 2003

Hamons

This is also a major point for me. There just dosn't seem to be any direct documented evidence to support or disprove whether these chemicals destroy the benefits of organic methods. I personally don't believe so and if you are a true proponent of Integrated Pest management/Plant health care then you would use both organic and synthetic methods. We have all used manure and synthetic fertilizer in the same garden. Both have benefits for the soil and plants.

Dan

SWD · Sep 17, 2003

As I have stated in earlier postings, I believe there is a place for organic use and for synthetics. The particular dynamics of your maintenance situation typically dictates how much or either you will use.
I have read quite a bit about soil research and repopulation of sterilized soils. I haven't come across any empirical studies showing detrimental effects of synthetics upon microbial populations. If anyone finds research articles of this type, I would be interested in reading them.

Dchall_San_Antonio · Sep 17, 2003

Does professional and responsible use of pesticides completely destroy the benefits of using natural organic materials in the lawn?

I've been warned already to watch for the use of the word pesticides vice herbicides and insecticides. I'm going to comment on both.

As far as the spot use of inorganic herbicides on select weeds in turf, mulch, or bare soil, I'm going to relax my organic standards. There are some weeds that do not respond to any organic treatment including mechanical pulling. Nutsedge comes to mind. Although you might kill some grass and soil microbes with overspray, the soil microbes by and large can recover very quickly with a dose of compost and organic fertilizer. If you are using a broadleaf herbicide within 100 feet of a tree, I'm going to beg off on that relaxation. If you are using a product with picloram or clopyralid on turf even without trees I will not relax. This is out of a matter of principle - those two products persist for years after compost digesting and can make compost with those ingredients poisonous to any broadleafed plants they get used on.

I don't think this question was directed at insects, but I don't want to be misunderstood before I say anything about the topic. As far as using insecticides on any damaging insect, I won't relax my organic standards. There are way too many beneficial insects that we cannot see that will be harmed by the spray. These beneficial insects give 100% control when they are left alone. The problem with killing "a few" beneficials is that the bad guys have a faster reproductive cycle and can return before the beneficials eggs hatch. For example, newborn aphids can be born 100% female and 100% pregnant ready to lay fertile eggs of which 100% will be female and pregnant and they can do that every 7-10 days. Ladybugs and the tiny wasps that destroy aphids take much longer to go through a life cycle if they get killed by overspray. Sometimes the organic solution might be birds, wasps, ladybugs, beneficial nematodes, or several other beneficial insect predators.

But once again, this forum is not about me. This forum is about your clients and what they want. If they state that they want organic program, make sure you know what they mean. Do they want an organic program all the way up until they see the first weed or grasshopper? Or are they willing to live with that weed or grasshopper while the organic program works against it. In the short, medium, and long terms, I think you'll find fewer bad insects on organic progam properties.

Does this help or confuse?

Commercial Organic Lawn Care Program

Hamons

Dchall_San_Antonio

Green in Idaho

dan deutekom

Dchall_San_Antonio

dan deutekom

Grassmechanic

GroundKprs

Green in Idaho

Green in Idaho

GroundKprs

Green in Idaho

woodycrest

woodycrest

Dchall_San_Antonio

dan deutekom

Hamons

dan deutekom

SWD

Dchall_San_Antonio

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