We have combined some zones by hooking together 2 or sometimes 3 valves in the same area to shorten our total watering run time. Pressure isn't a issue but wondered if this could potentially cause any problems to the controller since it will now be sending voltage to multiple valves plus the master valve. Has anyone had issues with this?
kcdas
What controller and valves are you using? Depends on the amperage (current) your controller can put out and how much your valve solenoids need to open. Solenoids have an inrush amperage (opening amps) and a holding amperage, inrush being higher of the two.
Many modern controllers would 'see' an electrical load of three valves on one zone output as a short circuit, and shut the zone off and display an error message.
The controller will most likely be fine as each terminal sends its own current;however, you will be shortening the life of the solenoid. If you are trying to shorten your run times why not split the zones up? I'm not sure how many you are working with or what type heads, but you could run half on one day and the other half on another.
I built a little rig with alligator clips to do just that when doing blowouts, never any issues.
You can't hurt the controller no matter how many valves you connect. You may just have a zone shut down in error mode. For what it's worth, you do get a slightly lower electrical load with valves wired together in the valve boxes, than you do with zones jumpered together at the controller. (the difference being that your connections have the increased current load going through a single wire both coming to and returning from the valves)
Depending upon controller output and solenoid inrush/holding requirements ganging valves isn't normally an issue. Valves ganged in the field tend to fare better on 12/14ga. wiring, ganged at controller not as important.
Since pressure does come into play for proper solenoid accuation I hazard to guess you're not referring to pressure at head which would be more about volume.
Amperage is the word you're inferring, voltage is a measurement of potential electrical force, amperage is a measurement of working electrical force.
There's a couple of nanoseconds delay between the activation and zone activation, the delay addresses the inrush conflict of multiple solenoids activating at the same time.
Transformer output and resistance, yes.
Yes and no. The controller would 'see' excessive current draw not low resistance. Depending on how each of us hold our mouths, were both right.
How, exactly would the solenoid life be effected?
Length of wire run and size of wire add or subtract resistance to the circuit as the solenoid resistances are pretty uniform in regards to factory specs.
Any controller operating a MV is running 2 valves at the same time, only difference is the delay between MV and zone.
That's a great question, one only the designer and original installer can answer though.
To little or to less of power can actually short out the solenoid, I've seen it hundreds of times and they all had multiple valves connected. Also the hunter specs you posted are for all but i core
http://www.hunterindustries.com/support/valves-maximum-number-hunter-solenoids-station-terminal
http://www.hunterindustries.com/support/valves-maximum-number-hunter-solenoids-station-terminal
My real question is, why do you have these "extra" zones? If you are able to operate 3 zones with no pressure loss, why was the system not designed according to the gallons per minute available with the given pressure?[/QUOTE]
That is a good question but the original installer is now out of business, surprise, surprise. We are just upgrading the controllers and looking for better options to use what we have buried in the ground.
And the controllers we are using and switching to are Rainbird, not Hunter.
That is a good question but the original installer is now out of business, surprise, surprise. We are just upgrading the controllers and looking for better options to use what we have buried in the ground.
And the controllers we are using and switching to are Rainbird, not Hunter.
You said that you have an existing ESP-MC controller (obsolete) and are switching to an ESP-Me controller and that you have 3 Rain Bird PGA valves on a single station with no problems. You ask if you will have problems doing this on the ESP-Me controller. My response is specific to this set of products.
The ESP-MC (commercial) controller had a 2.5 Amp transformer. The ESP-Me (residential/light commercial) controller has a 1.0 Amp transformer. This is the first indication of trouble.
The PGA valve uses a solenoid that (I am told) uses 300 milliamps (mA). (The catalog seems to say something else, so my next internal stop is the PGA valve Product Manager.)
The ESP-Me has over-current protection that will likely trip at 900 mA of current. So, one solenoid on the station (300 mA) + one solenoid on the master valve circuit (300 mA) = 600 mA. Adding another solenoid to the station will increase the current to 900 mA and the over-current protection of the controller will likely be tripped. The station will shut down and a fault message will be displayed.
Your next question might be, "So, which Rain Bird controllers today can handle 3 solenoids per station + the master valve?" None. You could use an ESP-LXME controller, but you would have to have no more than two solenoids per station and run two stations simultaneously. If you still have available the station wire that went from the controller to each valve, you could use those to wire two valves to one station and one valve to another station and then run them simultaneously.
So, Rain Bird's official answer for the ESP-Me controller is one (Rain Bird) valve per station plus one (Rain Bird) valve on the master valve circuit. On a good day, you might get away with 2 per station + the master valve (manufacturing variability may allow this), but I would not do it. They always work when you are standing there and the controller waits to fail until after you leave and are at least 5 mile away. There must be some sort of vision sensor that I don't know about. Oh, it must also have GPS tracking on your truck.
The ESP-MC (commercial) controller had a 2.5 Amp transformer. The ESP-Me (residential/light commercial) controller has a 1.0 Amp transformer. This is the first indication of trouble.
The PGA valve uses a solenoid that (I am told) uses 300 milliamps (mA). (The catalog seems to say something else, so my next internal stop is the PGA valve Product Manager.)
The ESP-Me has over-current protection that will likely trip at 900 mA of current. So, one solenoid on the station (300 mA) + one solenoid on the master valve circuit (300 mA) = 600 mA. Adding another solenoid to the station will increase the current to 900 mA and the over-current protection of the controller will likely be tripped. The station will shut down and a fault message will be displayed.
Your next question might be, "So, which Rain Bird controllers today can handle 3 solenoids per station + the master valve?" None. You could use an ESP-LXME controller, but you would have to have no more than two solenoids per station and run two stations simultaneously. If you still have available the station wire that went from the controller to each valve, you could use those to wire two valves to one station and one valve to another station and then run them simultaneously.
So, Rain Bird's official answer for the ESP-Me controller is one (Rain Bird) valve per station plus one (Rain Bird) valve on the master valve circuit. On a good day, you might get away with 2 per station + the master valve (manufacturing variability may allow this), but I would not do it. They always work when you are standing there and the controller waits to fail until after you leave and are at least 5 mile away. There must be some sort of vision sensor that I don't know about. Oh, it must also have GPS tracking on your truck.
Are these overload trip levels for continuous current or for surge current? And for that matter, what is the duration of solenoid surge current? Inquiring minds want to know. 
Obviously, the triacs should handle anything the transformer can supply. It's when we do the simple math and see that three solenoids powered simultaneously will never put a 20 VA rated supply transformer in jeopardy, that we wonder why a controller won't accommodate them.
[
Any controller operating a MV is running 2 valves at the same time, only difference is the delay between MV and zone.
OP mentioned 2+ valves in addition to MV and that is what I was referring to. I've worked with controllers on golf courses that were designed to operate multiple valves at the same time.
Any controller operating a MV is running 2 valves at the same time, only difference is the delay between MV and zone.
OP mentioned 2+ valves in addition to MV and that is what I was referring to. I've worked with controllers on golf courses that were designed to operate multiple valves at the same time.
(Copied from sprinkus- I can't find the really awesome solenoid thread a few years back )
Solenoid Inrush Measurement
Inrush Current. It is the current required to generate sufficient magnetic force to pull the plunger or overcome the air gap.
If there is any fluid inside the solenoid, the air gap is filled with water which exerts certain amount of pressure on top of the plunger.
We need to know what is the force/pressue exerted on top of the plunger .
F1=P/A
P=water pressure
A= Area of the Plunger where water pressure is exerted.
F1= Force on top of the plunger.
Now the Magnetic force required to pull the plunger is
F= F1+FP
FP= is the weight of the plunger.
Based on the net force which is the required magnetic force use Maxwell force formula:
F = ( Fm)2 μ0 A / (2 g2)
In order to calculate this, you should know the magnetic permeability of the solenoid, material, number of turns in the coil, cross section of the coil ,or the magnet wire Inductance,etc.
The INRUSH does depend on the water pressure and efficiency of the solenoid.
------------------------------
Math aside
I walk into 1000+ systems a year . I often will see a system with MV and 2 zones wired up. Rarely I'll see 3 valves wired into the same port ( no MV)
In my experience in residential- It is very rare that I determine an electrical issue to the controller /fuse has been caused due to additional valves on the same circuit . I have many many more higher probable situations happen first
During winterizing I typically jumper zones 2 to 3 zones at a time. Sometimes I go through hot post, Valve test or jumper the zone itself. The inrush doesn't take into a major account because I don't turn on all 3 at once.
There are a lot of factors to include. If you can limit the system to 2 zones that would be ideal. If these zones are next to eachother ( As they should be if you are doubling up) Depending on your pipe sizing and flow rates/ pressure you could physically plumb the zones together instead.
In my opinion the cost of a solenoid with the average solenoid lifespan in comparison to possible site renovations to in order to accommodate ideal circumstances instead of doubling/ tripling zones ( of course is site specific) is probably not worth it. Meaning if you loose out on a couple years from the solenoid for doing this.. Instead of 25 years you get 20 .. Big whoop. It's easy to replace and in all likelihood other issues will happen first.
Solenoid Inrush Measurement
Inrush Current. It is the current required to generate sufficient magnetic force to pull the plunger or overcome the air gap.
If there is any fluid inside the solenoid, the air gap is filled with water which exerts certain amount of pressure on top of the plunger.
We need to know what is the force/pressue exerted on top of the plunger .
F1=P/A
P=water pressure
A= Area of the Plunger where water pressure is exerted.
F1= Force on top of the plunger.
Now the Magnetic force required to pull the plunger is
F= F1+FP
FP= is the weight of the plunger.
Based on the net force which is the required magnetic force use Maxwell force formula:
F = ( Fm)2 μ0 A / (2 g2)
In order to calculate this, you should know the magnetic permeability of the solenoid, material, number of turns in the coil, cross section of the coil ,or the magnet wire Inductance,etc.
The INRUSH does depend on the water pressure and efficiency of the solenoid.
------------------------------
Math aside
I walk into 1000+ systems a year . I often will see a system with MV and 2 zones wired up. Rarely I'll see 3 valves wired into the same port ( no MV)
In my experience in residential- It is very rare that I determine an electrical issue to the controller /fuse has been caused due to additional valves on the same circuit . I have many many more higher probable situations happen first
During winterizing I typically jumper zones 2 to 3 zones at a time. Sometimes I go through hot post, Valve test or jumper the zone itself. The inrush doesn't take into a major account because I don't turn on all 3 at once.
There are a lot of factors to include. If you can limit the system to 2 zones that would be ideal. If these zones are next to eachother ( As they should be if you are doubling up) Depending on your pipe sizing and flow rates/ pressure you could physically plumb the zones together instead.
In my opinion the cost of a solenoid with the average solenoid lifespan in comparison to possible site renovations to in order to accommodate ideal circumstances instead of doubling/ tripling zones ( of course is site specific) is probably not worth it. Meaning if you loose out on a couple years from the solenoid for doing this.. Instead of 25 years you get 20 .. Big whoop. It's easy to replace and in all likelihood other issues will happen first.
I agree with 99% of what Ron Wolfarth said with the exception of this for Hunter controllers:
Our triacs (station output transistors) do have a safe load limit and if you get into any legal (fire) issues, the manufacturer's recommended spec will be brought into the conversation. This is usually stated in the catalog or online specs. While you might get 3 valves to pop on one terminal, that triac is getting hammered. The Hunter rule of thumb is (max) 2 valves per station output.
When you get into the Big Boy controllers you can "Overlap" multiple programs. For instance, on an ACC conventional, you can run 2 valves per station and 6 simultaneous programs. That's 12 stations at once plus 2 Master Valves.
Obviously an ACC is a little expensive for the purpose first stated in this thread, but you get the point. An I-Core can run 2 valves/station and 2 simultaneous (overlapping) programs, plus a master valve. The new ICC2 can do the same at even less cost. Yes, ICC is back.
Jim made a good point earlier regarding Golf controllers. They have mega-triacs built for multi-valve-in-head operation. The point is that Hunter residential and light commercial solid state controllers do have triac limitations for safety and longevity.
Our triacs (station output transistors) do have a safe load limit and if you get into any legal (fire) issues, the manufacturer's recommended spec will be brought into the conversation. This is usually stated in the catalog or online specs. While you might get 3 valves to pop on one terminal, that triac is getting hammered. The Hunter rule of thumb is (max) 2 valves per station output.
When you get into the Big Boy controllers you can "Overlap" multiple programs. For instance, on an ACC conventional, you can run 2 valves per station and 6 simultaneous programs. That's 12 stations at once plus 2 Master Valves.
Obviously an ACC is a little expensive for the purpose first stated in this thread, but you get the point. An I-Core can run 2 valves/station and 2 simultaneous (overlapping) programs, plus a master valve. The new ICC2 can do the same at even less cost. Yes, ICC is back.
Jim made a good point earlier regarding Golf controllers. They have mega-triacs built for multi-valve-in-head operation. The point is that Hunter residential and light commercial solid state controllers do have triac limitations for safety and longevity.
Damn, my original post mustve got lost in cyber-ether.
I'm using ESP-LXME for running about 3 valves at the same time. Somebody asked why, because each zone for my smallish yard is tailored to very specific conditions: shade/sun, grass/shrubs, drip
So i have 7 zones but half of are <5GPM hunter MP rotator zones.
A1: Maxipaw rotors: 14GPM
A2: MP Rotators: 1.5GPM
B1: MP Rotators: 4.8GPM bridged with B2
B2: MP Rotators: 2.9GPM bridged with B1
C1: Maxipaw rotors: 14GPM
C2: Maxipaw rotors: 9.5GPM
C3: MP Rotators: 3.2GPM
since they all deliver basically .42 in/h, for simplicity here I have them set at 30 minutes.
Had to spread wires across two 8 zone modules, due to 2 stations/module active limit (strange IMO but clearly some limit on the circuit lines entering the modules)
Using the FloManager function on the ESP-LXME, and inputting my pump's GPM of 27 GPM (actually higher), and 3 valves, spread across two modules: it runs:
A1,A2,C2
then
C1,B1&B2,C3
My system is basically done in one hour instead of 30min x 7zones = 210 minutes = 3.5 hours
I'm using ESP-LXME for running about 3 valves at the same time. Somebody asked why, because each zone for my smallish yard is tailored to very specific conditions: shade/sun, grass/shrubs, drip
So i have 7 zones but half of are <5GPM hunter MP rotator zones.
A1: Maxipaw rotors: 14GPM
A2: MP Rotators: 1.5GPM
B1: MP Rotators: 4.8GPM bridged with B2
B2: MP Rotators: 2.9GPM bridged with B1
C1: Maxipaw rotors: 14GPM
C2: Maxipaw rotors: 9.5GPM
C3: MP Rotators: 3.2GPM
since they all deliver basically .42 in/h, for simplicity here I have them set at 30 minutes.
Had to spread wires across two 8 zone modules, due to 2 stations/module active limit (strange IMO but clearly some limit on the circuit lines entering the modules)
Using the FloManager function on the ESP-LXME, and inputting my pump's GPM of 27 GPM (actually higher), and 3 valves, spread across two modules: it runs:
A1,A2,C2
then
C1,B1&B2,C3
My system is basically done in one hour instead of 30min x 7zones = 210 minutes = 3.5 hours
The explanation given to me by Hunter and Rainbird Tech Support was that there was a limiting circuit in the controllers. One could pull in 2 valves and a MV/PSR but that was it, and if you had a magnetic starter for your pump you were dead in the water.
For years we had to use an ice-cube relay wired to a transformer to get enough amperage to pull in multiple valves and pumpstarts/master valves. Then Hunter FINALLY started to actually produce the beast, calling it the PSRB (Pump Start Relay Booster). This had to be used on ALL Hunter controllers, even the ACC/ICC conventionals, and ALL Rainbird controllers.
Somewhere I have that wiring diagram...
Maybe the current-limiting could be twice applied. One limiter for pump/master valve and one limiter for zone valves. That would probably not strain a modern supply transformer, or if it might, splurge on a 30 VA transformer instead of the 20 VA cheapies that replaced the 40 VA transformers of the olden days.
A poster joked about using modern heads :laughing:
Put those on Ebay, people seem to always be looking for the used maxipaw's of the 80s/90s with the square-ish reversing trip lever on the back.
I did make a lot of money and score a great client once who had Maxi-Paws. Turned out, his little dog hated the sound of them and ripped them to pieces. All I could say, was, "good dog". Replaced with I-20s and the dog had to find trouble elsewhere!
I'm curious just how a system of uniformly-covering Maxipaws presented an opportunity for such a large water savings by way of their being replaced. Were they not fitted with nozzles commensurate with their coverage arcs/radii ??
Most water waste is caused by poor management. The controller change on this project which automated much of the irrigation management is likely responsible for almost all of those savings. Even with heads that have poor distribution or are arranged poorly can be made more efficient with good management whether it is done by the controller or the irrigation manager.
I think we often leave irrigation management to the fellow mowing the grass who has little to no irrigation knowledge or training. He is the one on-site once a week or so and the maintenance budget does not allow for anyone else to be on-site often enough to manually manage irrigation. The effect is that we are putting the management of what is, many times, a $100,000 water budget in the hands of the grass mower. There aren't many $100,000 budgets managed that way for good reason. This is somewhat shocking to me when I think of it this way.
I think we often leave irrigation management to the fellow mowing the grass who has little to no irrigation knowledge or training. He is the one on-site once a week or so and the maintenance budget does not allow for anyone else to be on-site often enough to manually manage irrigation. The effect is that we are putting the management of what is, many times, a $100,000 water budget in the hands of the grass mower. There aren't many $100,000 budgets managed that way for good reason. This is somewhat shocking to me when I think of it this way.
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