new lawn seeding rate KBG picture example wanted

roody2333 · May 10, 2018

I can't seem to find a picture example (with a quarter for scale usually) of 'new lawn' (seeds on bare soil KBG. Nor a video.

I know it's "2-3lb per 1K sq ft" for new lawns from scratch (bare soil) and 1-2lb overseeding a thin but decent KBG lawn, but I'd rather have a picture example to go by rather than dividing that out and trying to hand-broadcast as evenly as possibly since I'm only seeding 800 sq of 'new' from scratch and then 1,400 sq ft is overseeding existing KBG, and the 'new' area is mostly sidewalk strips that can only be broadcasted by hand.

Anyway, I've seen a pic before but can't find it and I think it was also compared side-by-side to tall fescue and was surprised at how little amount of KGB seed is used for 'new' lawn.

Why space the seeds so far apart?? I know KBG rhizomes and TTTF doesn't but why not just let it start off thicker and then core aerate to dethatch if the reason to avoid close seed spacing is to avoid early thatch build up?

In other words, what would happen if I put down a decent amount more than 3lb per 1K for new lawn area?

I've seeded pallets and pallets of TTTF with great results but never seeded KBG. It just feels wrong to me to use about 1/3 the seeds I would when seeding TTTF.
(The KBG will be on irrigation BTW so don't need to comment about that VS TTTF being more drought tolerant etc.)
Planting Midnight strain BTW.
\thank you

BigJlittleC · May 10, 2018

Kbg is tuff to grow from seed unless in a mix.

Can't help with a picture but when I seed my small lots I just shake a handful out till it looks covered. Then throw down some compost and rake lightly. I don't worry much about putting down to much seed.

KerbDMK · May 10, 2018

In my experience, an area that I had used too much seed struggled to come out of the "sprout and Pout" stage meaning that there was so much competition among the seedlings that they struggled to grow tall and mature into normal size plants. Some people say that this kind of overcrowding can also lead to disease, but I have not experienced that.

Here is a link to an article that I think will be of some help to you.

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/can-use-much-grass-seed-65691.html

Remember that there are a lot more seeds in a pound of KBG than there are in a pound of fescue or rye.

According to the article you should have 10 to 12 seeds per square inch. They don't mention KBG but a seed is a seed, and one seed is one plant, so KBG will be the same.

I love Midnight, but it gets powdery mildew very easily, so use it in sunny areas.

RigglePLC · May 10, 2018

Listen to Kerb. Midnight Kentucky blue gets powdery mildew if grown in the shade--otherwise it is the best.
I calculated bluegrass has 2,000,000 seeds per pound. At one pound per thousand sq ft...that would be 2000 seeds per sqft
That would be 14 seeds per square inch.
Bluegrass is usually seeded at about 4 pounds per thousand. That would be about 56 seeds per square inch.
Perhaps throw a quarter on the soil and count the seeds that it covers. Or catch the seeds in a small bottle cap or pill vial (need about 1 and 1/8 inch in diameter.)
However, I suggest a lot more seed per thousand sqft. As the seed is so small and slow to germinate, unless conditions are ideal.

I suggest 4 pounds per thousand sqft in an overseed situation, because the germination may be lower.

KerbDMK · May 10, 2018

Thanks for doing the math Riggle. Like you say 4 pounds may be fine for an overseeding, but I have run into problems with anything at or over 4 pounds per thousand on bare ground.

RigglePLC · May 10, 2018

I just looked up the seeds per pound of Falcon V turf type tall fescue--at 235,000 seeds per pound.
Bare soil seeding rate is 6 to 10 pounds per thousand. About 10 to 16 seeds per square inch. (Proseedsmarketing com).

RigglePLC · May 10, 2018

Scroll down a few posts to view my test of seed in coffee mugs and muffin tins.
Problem was at one pass, I only got about half as many seeds as I wanted.
Going over it twice with my cheap spreader would have been about right. Large seeds sometimes do not flow through the spreader holes as well as I would like. I was trying to hit about 77 seeds per coffee cup.
For easier counting--a glass dish about half as big and 40 seeds per pass would be about right.

roody2333 · May 11, 2018

thanks

KerbDMK said:
In my experience, an area that I had used too much seed struggled to come out of the "sprout and Pout" stage meaning that there was so much competition among the seedlings that they struggled to grow tall and mature into normal size plants. Some people say that this kind of overcrowding can also lead to disease, but I have not experienced that.

I forgot to mention I wasn't planning to overcrowd. I never do that with TTTF either. But if it's a late Fall (end of October is about as late as I'll seed but it works out good), then I add more seed as Riggle often suggests to people. Because soil temp might be getting too cold for germination and want to increase chances.

I know when 2 seeds (or any small plant really) are spaced too closely, what happens is the 2 seedlings compete for the same nutrients, then one of them might die and the one that survived is only half-fed because the one that died took nutrients. That's at least one reason not to crowd seeds.

KerbDMK said:
Remember that there are a lot more seeds in a pound of KBG than there are in a pound of fescue or rye.

True, I was thinking this before. It will basically have the same spacing as when I seed TTF which is about 15 seeds per sq inch.

I think what got me confused was I either saw a picture comparing TTTF and KBG seed on bare soil and the KBG had less seeds per sq inch, or it might have been this part of this video: The guy does mention the size of seeds are different but then goes on to say that KBG will fill in with rhizomes and TTTF won't, almost as if he plants less KBG seeds per sq inch. 'use more TTTF seeds because it's not gonna fill in' @ around 8:40

I guess it's a way to save money, if you have patience for the rhizomes you can get it thick with less seeds but might need more pre emergent until the bare soil fills in.

KerbDMK said:
I love Midnight, but it gets powdery mildew very easily, so use it in sunny areas.

It's full sun and with irrigation. I almost bought Kenblue but no. What's already there must be Midnight or a blend but is definitely a late Spring green-up strain because it hasn't grown an inch yet in the areas that are ok. It'll probably rhizome-in the thin areas but I'll tine dethatch those and seed them too. Some areas are fully dead though from over-watering and at night.
Midnight KBG from what I read has the best disease tolerance and is also the darkest. Kenblue will green up fast but why not avoid early Spring constant mowing TTTF and some KBGs have.

KerbDMK · May 11, 2018

roody2333 said:
I forgot to mention I wasn't planning to overcrowd.

roody2333 said:
In other words, what would happen if I put down a decent amount more than 3lb per 1K for new lawn area?

But this was the part of your original question that I was responding to, so maybe I didn't understand correctly.

You may be interested in the following anyway.

I did a couple of KBG seedings last fall. I did one with SodGrower II from United Seeds. They say to seed at 3lbs per 1,000 Sq. Ft. and I did one with Bwitched from Superseedstore. They say to seed at 2lbs./1000 sq. ft.

I planted Sod Grower II first (8/1/17) then Bewitched two weeks later (8/15/17) and I applied both seeds at 4lbs./1,000 sq. ft. I planted the Sod Grower II at 4/1000 (only 25% more than recommended) because I thought a little extra might be good and I always hear on this site, from many sources and other sources too, that you should use more than the recommended rate. I planted the Bewitched at 4/1000 (twice the recommended rate) because the seed was about a year and a half old and I wasn't sure how successful germination was going to be at that that age.

The results were that Sod Grower II ended up overcrowded and is still this spring tying to grow to a mature height. The Bewitched did much better and was able to get to a full mature height before winter arrived (except for washouts that I had to reseed).

So in conclusion, Bewitched did okay even at twice the recommended rate, but it was old seed. The Sod Grower II (fresh seed) got overcrowded and stunted with just a little more seed than recommended (maybe their recommendation is to high).

After all of this I'm not sure about seed sellers recommended rates and I'm thinking that 2 to 3 lbs. per 1,000 sq. ft. may be plenty of KBG seed especially if you have the time to let it mature and thicken on its own with rhizomes (the next season). Maybe Superseedstore's recommendation of just 2 lbs. per 1,000 sq. ft. is enough with fresh seed on bare soil.

I really enjoyed the video.

KerbDMK · May 11, 2018

I think I did my math wrong. Four pounds would be 33% more than three pounds.

RigglePLC · May 11, 2018

Thanks, Kerb. Good video.
Of course, sod growers have a different perspective. They look carefully at the cost of seed per acre. If the seed company thinks their seed only needs 2 pounds per thousand that reduces the price per thousand by 50 percent. They have the proper equipment, fertility dialed-in, excellent soil, irrigation, skilled people and years of experience. To grow sod, it is absolutely critical that the sod is strong enough to hold together during harvest in about a year, sometimes 18 months. They lose money if it takes 2 years.
As landscapers and lawn care professionals we are usually in a hurry. And we often have to depend on a homeowner to water.
My opinion, make sure the fertility, seed rate, date of sowing, and soil preparation are near the optimum. Do everything you can to ensure success--even if you cannot completely control the irrigation.

KerbDMK · May 11, 2018

RigglePLC said:
As landscapers and lawn care professionals we are usually in a hurry. And we often have to depend on a homeowner to water.

I was hoping that you would mention that.

For the homeowners I believe that the better they are at growing seed, the less seed they need to use, particularly if it is KBG.

If you are a professional sod grower, you still can't afford to use too little seed because the sod will not knit together well enough by harvest time.

RigglePLC · May 12, 2018

So you could use a bottle cap from a gallon jug of Trimec. Try to apply enough to get about 15 seeds per bottle cap.
Or use a cap from a 2.5 gallon jug. Measure it and determine the square inches and recalculate. Bigger in sq inches of area. Takes longer to count--but it would be more accurate.
Or count out the seed once and then photograph--as a way to compare and estimate.

More accurate if you put out three caps at different distances from the spreader track. The seed throw pattern can be variable.

If you would rather use paper plates, and do not mind counting out a lot more seeds; that would be more accurate yet.

RigglePLC · May 12, 2018

I calculated the area of a jug screw cap at 1.76 sq inches.
At 6 lbs per thousand sqft of perennial rye, at 230,000 seeds per pound, one would need about 16 seeds per cap. I counted them out.
See photo.
At 2,000,000 seeds per pound, seeding Kentucky bluegrass at 4 pounds per thousand square feet, one would need about 98 seeds per cap.

roody2333 · May 12, 2018

I really enjoyed the video
That is a good video, it's like 240p resolution but dude mentions key points. And one of them off topic is that TTTF DOESN'T get excess thatch like KBG does, at least %95 of scenarios it doesn't. People seem to think dead bottom layer or something else or an older strain of spongy TF is excess thatch and pitch aeration of TTTF for thatch but it doesn't have excess thatch. And some thatch IS necessary, less is not more. TTTF should still be cored every couple years for other reasons (allow air and water deeper to roots and reduce compaction of soil) but thatch is not one of them.

I forgot to mention I wasn't planning to overcrowd.
Click to expand...
↑
In other words, what would happen if I put down a decent amount more than 3lb per 1K for new lawn area?
Click to expand...
But this was the part of your original question that I was responding to, so maybe I didn't understand correctly.

Yea nah I was just confused because originally I though it was supposed to be planted spaced apart to let the rhizomes fill it in instead of because seeding rates are so much different because KBG seeds are so much smaller than TTTF.

RigglePLC said:
At 2,000,000 seeds per pound, seeding Kentucky bluegrass at 4 pounds per thousand square feet, one would need about 98 seeds per cap.

thanks riggle, that top cap of KBG is what I was planning to do after discussing this.

They mention in that video also seeds per lb of KBG vs TTTF and their numbers were close to your two's estimates.

thanks again.

RigglePLC · May 13, 2018

I counted the seeds in 1/4 teaspoon of ryegrass seed--which was 226 seeds. If one were to use a paper plate, which is 8.5 inches diameter up to where it is slanted down away from the center, you would have an area of about .4 sqft.
At 6 pounds per thousand one would need about 557 seeds per plate. About 2.46 quarter teaspoons. See photo.
For Kentucky bluegrass I used two quarter teaspoons for about 4 pounds per thousand.
I tried to spread the seed randomly--nearly impossible, about 3200 seeds.

roody2333 · May 22, 2018

hmm, so the bottom plate of KBG is 4lb per 1K and is more than the recommended 2-3lb per 1K. I seeded the completely bare area of KBG yesterday and I used slightly more than that plate. Especially the edges since I had to spread it all by hand it's hard to sprinkle just the right amount without under or over-doing it without getting seeds on the pavement.
there were no patches of spaces between seeds especially in the main center away from edges because unlike over a plate, I'm able to sprinkle from higher above and not worry about just getting it on a plate.

Side note, I realized water rates are tricky for over seeding already-decent areas of KBG in Spring. Because right now the Midnight KBG is finally starting to grow, the areas that are decent. So if for 3 weeks to sprout the seeds in the decent overseeded areas, if I just have it watered only a small amount a few times a day just to keep the seeds moist, then the existing KBG won't get its suggested 1-2" of water per week all 1 deep soaking to promote deeper roots. So that type of watering will also have to be added in along with the frequent short waterings to keep the seeds moist. just another reason seeding in Spring sucks.

Dandan111 · May 26, 2018

Good information here. Like the pictures. To me it looks like im a cheapskate because I doubt I ever lay down enough seed. On the flip side I overseed often and my lawn is getting thick. KBG is tough. I'm not sure that I have much. I put KBG mix down but it's like watching paint dry to find a sprout.
A little fescue or rye in the mix makes life so much more enjoyable.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for your fresh KBG. It's getting hot..

new lawn seeding rate KBG picture example wanted

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