So no 10w40 for Vanguards, wander why?

ARN Greencare · Feb 10, 2019

Alright now kids, settle down before the mods come and put someone in time out!

cruzenmike · Feb 10, 2019

ARN Greencare,

I take it that you got your Briggs chart from the link below:

https://www.vanguardengines.com/na/en_us/support/faqs/browse/oil-recommendations.html

These documents are for guidance only and the spec of oil you are asking about can be used if you ensure that the service classifications are met. I will admit that 10w40 is certainly more flexible of an oil seeing as it covers a wider range of operating temperatures.

Now. while the above statements are quoted or paraphrased directly from an engine manufacturer, I will note that my own words are that of opinion or based off of personal experience. If I choose to state a fact, I will be sure to start my sentence with "It is a matter of fact...." And include copious amounts of references ;-)

Again, Briggs does not put their name on any 10w40 so it would only make sense that they don't list it in their manuals. Can be used, but like most companies they will want to keep the consumer using their "branded" products.

ARN Greencare · Feb 10, 2019

Now back to the subject, mine, (29HP Vanguard,) is gonna get a dose of 10w40, really soon.

I know some are asking why? Well, if it goes, there's no love lost for this engine. I also have other engines that have been quite happy with 10w40 for many, many hours of commercial use.

Also 10w40, with the exception of 5w30, has the best viscosity index of current common conventional oils, which is a good thing.

10w30 is not recommended for use in hot climates, SAE30 is not recommended in cold climates, 10w40 has viscosity in temperatures than can be used in these climates. There is no oil recommended as an "all season." And with the temperature swings we get here in NC foothills, I refuse to have to change my oil for the sake of a cold bitter morning when I have a leaf clean up job. People that have seen my other thread know what a bear my mower is to start when it is cold. And this engine is clearly capable of running the thicker viscosity based on the fact that they list 15w50 in their chart.

So bottom line is, we will see!

ARN Greencare · Feb 10, 2019

cruzenmike said:
ARN Greencare,

I take it that you got your Briggs chart from the link below:

https://www.vanguardengines.com/na/en_us/support/faqs/browse/oil-recommendations.html

These documents are for guidance only and the spec of oil you are asking about can be used if you ensure that the service classifications are met. I will admit that 10w40 is certainly more flexible of an oil seeing as it covers a wider range of operating temperatures.

Now. while the above statements are quoted or paraphrased directly from an engine manufacturer, I will note that my own words are that of opinion or based off of personal experience. If I choose to state a fact, I will be sure to start my sentence with "It is a matter of fact...." And include copious amounts of references ;-)

Again, Briggs does not put their name on any 10w40 so it would only make sense that they don't list it in their manuals. Can be used, but like most companies they will want to keep the consumer using their "branded" products.

The main thing I want is that wide viscosity index that 10w40 offers. 5W30 has a wider VI, but can cause consumption issues in hotter climates. I personally have sent off many, many samples of oil off for analysis, and have a pretty good idea of what different weights/type of oil will result going into something. I am sure the 10w40 will not hurt anything, and is probably the most stable conventional oil for the temperatures in my area.

When I lived in FL, I ran those Kohler Command Pro engines in the early 2000's, and they said to use 10w30. I used to get those things so hot that the hydraulic lifters would collapse, and I would have to stop and let it cool off. I finally started using the 15w40 diesel oil I kept for my truck, and problem solved. Well, kind of, they still got too hot, but the lifters stayed pumped up, and I kept mowing.

Koehn's Lawn Service · Feb 10, 2019

GSO LAWNEN4CER said:
Are you buying from a big box store?

I just get my oil at wal mart I use quaker state but before using synthetic I used there super tec I change oil so often I'm religious with my maintnence

Ridin' Green · Feb 10, 2019

ARN Greencare said:
I understand that the oils in the chart are popular, or common, with maybe the exception of SAE30wt, though popular in small engines, not so elsewhere, and losing popularity in small engines. What seems funny, is if you look at the viscosity charts, 10w40 falls right between 10w30 and 15w50 in terms of viscosity, but they do not recommend it.

I actually think that cruzenmike mentioned something above to be noteworthy. He mentioned B&S doesn't sale 10w40, and that chart is reflective of the weights they sale. (He used the term "manufacture" actually, but we will let him and dieselss work that out...)

I agree with you for the most part. My comment was to point out that as far as the syn oils go, the two shown overlap well in application so no need to add in the 10w-40 when one or the other two cover every use requirement.

weeze · Feb 10, 2019

if you can use 10w30 and 15w50 then 10w40 is fine to use. i've used everything in mower engines. 30wt, 10w30, 10w40, 15w50, 20w50....they all will work fine. personally in a vanguard i would use their 15w50 synthetic. i don't ever plan to mow when it's below 20F and it gets hot over 100F here in the summer sometimes. i guess in a snowblower with a vanguard engine then 5w30 would make more sense to use in the winter time though.

really i don't even know why they still make conventional dino oil at all but they do. it would be better to use walmart supertech synthetic than to use conventional oil. kawi oil is synthetic blend...i'm not even sure why they do that. synthetic is better.

aroddy · Feb 10, 2019

I have no intention of getting into the specifics of viscosities and whatnot.....but we sell a lot of Vanguard engines and have been selling the Vanguard 15W50 oil for a couple seasons. Non-oil guard engines at the 100hr oil changes (or once a season) that have been performed in our shop w/ 15W50 Vanguard oil has been very clean compared to standard 10W30 / SAE30 with the same amount of time. Vanguard Big Blocks / 810 engines don't tend to burn oil compared to Kawasaki FX ( for what we see in our shop) so I can not speak for oil consumption from 15W50 vs conventional options. The 500hr Oilguard changes look great when we performe services as well. The Vanguard 15W50 has been very impressive for us....especially since it is relatively cheap for a full synthetic!

cruzenmike · Feb 10, 2019

aroddy said:
I have no intention of getting into the specifics of viscosities and whatnot.....but we sell a lot of Vanguard engines and have been selling the Vanguard 15W50 oil for a couple seasons. Non-oil guard engines at the 100hr oil changes (or once a season) that have been performed in our shop w/ 15W50 Vanguard oil has been very clean compared to standard 10W30 / SAE30 with the same amount of time. Vanguard Big Blocks / 810 engines don't tend to burn oil compared to Kawasaki FX ( for what we see in our shop) so I can not speak for oil consumption from 15W50 vs conventional options. The 500hr Oilguard changes look great when we performe services as well. The Vanguard 15W50 has been very impressive for us....especially since it is relatively cheap for a full synthetic!

I had considered moving to the Vanguard synthetic myself but year after year using the Briggs SAE30 and I still continue to have no consumption and clean oil at the end of the season. If and when I upgrade into a new Vanguard EFI I will likely run only the synthetic.

ARN Greencare · Feb 11, 2019

cruzenmike said:
I had considered moving to the Vanguard synthetic myself but year after year using the Briggs SAE30 and I still continue to have no consumption and clean oil at the end of the season. If and when I upgrade into a new Vanguard EFI I will likely run only the synthetic.

Your oil won't be any cleaner by switching to synthetic. Type of oil has little to nothing to do with how dirty it gets between changes. You can take the best synthetic oil out there and run it in a diesel and it will turn it black. Then take the cheapest, sorriest oil out there and run it in an LP fuel engine and it will never turn black. If your oil is coming out that clean it is really a testament to how well your engine is tuned, the condition of the cylinders, and the fuel you're using. Cause all engines have some blow by, and that is what turns the oil dark in the vast majority of cases. Now switching to a heavier weight may cause it to come out cleaner, only cause thicker oil will help the rings seal a bit better, maybe...

ARN Greencare · Feb 11, 2019

Ridin' Green said:
I agree with you for the most part. My comment was to point out that as far as the syn oils go, the two shown overlap well in application so no need to add in the 10w-40 when one or the other two cover every use requirement.

I see what you're saying, and agree to an extent. But if I got oil in my engine, and it is a while before it is due for a change, I am not going to change it cause a cold snap hits for three or four days. And yes, where I live it can happen, which is why 10w40 has been a choice of mine for so long.

ARN Greencare · Feb 11, 2019

weeze said:
if you can use 10w30 and 15w50 then 10w40 is fine to use. i've used everything in mower engines. 30wt, 10w30, 10w40, 15w50, 20w50....they all will work fine. personally in a vanguard i would use their 15w50 synthetic. i don't ever plan to mow when it's below 20F and it gets hot over 100F here in the summer sometimes. i guess in a snowblower with a vanguard engine then 5w30 would make more sense to use in the winter time though.

really i don't even know why they still make conventional dino oil at all but they do. it would be better to use walmart supertech synthetic than to use conventional oil. kawi oil is synthetic blend...i'm not even sure why they do that. synthetic is better.

What makes synthetics so much better?

And I use one of my mowers for leaf clean up and mowing during summer, so that little jewel has got to be on the move pretty much year around, hot and cold days.

Ridin' Green · Feb 11, 2019

ARN Greencare said:
I see what you're saying, and agree to an extent. But if I got oil in my engine, and it is a while before it is due for a change, I am not going to change it cause a cold snap hits for three or four days. And yes, where I live it can happen, which is why 10w40 has been a choice of mine for so long.

Trust me, it gets cold here in MI.

weeze · Feb 11, 2019

ARN Greencare said:
What makes synthetics so much better?

And I use one of my mowers for leaf clean up and mowing during summer, so that little jewel has got to be on the move pretty much year around, hot and cold days.

lots of things. the additives in synthetic oils are better and hold up longer. if you change the oil every 50hrs it doesn't matter too much though in a mower engine....but if you wait 100hrs you will have better protection with the synthetic oil compared to the conventional oil during the last 50hrs before you change the oil again. how much difference does it make? no one knows for sure.

one thing for sure is the synthetic oil starts flowing better then conventional oil...especially in colder weather like during the late fall/early winter. 15w50 is a good weight of oil because you can use it all year long. in the heat and in the cold. that is only available in synthetic. one weight of oil to use all year long.

conventional has 20w50 but there are times i've mowed leaves and it was 29F which is too cold for that weight of oil. 20w50 is only good down to 32F. 15w50 goes all the way down to 20F. they both go up to like 125F or something like that.

it's just science. synthetics are better. that's why they cost more. now is it gonna make a huge difference on a mower engine? probably not too much but it certainly isn't gonna hurt anything. i mean i don't wanna run 10w30 in the cooler months and 20w50 in the summer months. i'd rather run one oil weight all season long that covers all temps.

you don't have to use synthetic. if you use conventional it's a good idea to change the oil more often though. right now i use kawi oil 10w40 in my kawi and kohler engines. it's a semi-synthetic oil. even that is better than a conventional oil. i would use full synthetic but kawi doesn't make that. i did use mobil 1 15w50 for a long time which is synthetic. mower engines tend to burn off more oil when using that though for some reason compared to kawi oil so that's why i made the switch. i haven't tried the vanguard 15w50 synthetic but if i had a vanguard engine i would use it for sure. i wouldn't be against using it in my kawi or kohler either.

here's a couple of videos to help show the difference:

StanWilhite · Feb 11, 2019

ARN Greencare said:
Alright now kids, settle down before the mods come and put someone in time out!

Eric502 · Feb 11, 2019

FWIW.... My VanG 37 efi was ran on valvoline racing 10w-30 conventional oil (for the zddp percentages) up until 100 hours. This season it is getting amsoil premium 20w-50. I was VERY close to putting in the amsoil small engine 10w-40, and I did put it in my kohler.

It is my opinion based on many, many sources of information I have read throughout the years that synthetic is by far superior to conventional. However that does not mean conventional is suited for everyone. It suits me to use synthetic for the hours I put on mowers per season. Someone else you has way more mowers and that puts more hours per season on them and thus mowers are traded for newer mowers more frequently.... the use of synthetics may not make sense. Especially if they are going oil changes every 2 weeks.

ARN Greencare · Feb 11, 2019

Regularly serviced conventional oil is better for your engine than longer oil change intervals of any synthetic. Oil analysis will bear me out on that. Combustion causes oil to become acidic over time which accelerates the aging of your seals and promotes corrosion. Also there is moisture contamination, fuel dilution, dust, metal particles, all occuring during the usage of your engine, and there is no cure for any of this other than changing your oil.

Synthetics also have a lower film strength rating than conventional oils unless the manufacture uses really expensive lubricant packages and friction modifiers. Castrol, Valvoline, even Oreily house brand multi viscosity conventional oils all tested consistently 90,000 PSI or more. Standard Amsoil usually tests under 80,000 PSI unless you buy their signature stuff, and I don't think Royal Purple even has an oil that exceeds 80,000 PSI.

This is why I never bought into the Synthetic hype. The advertisements are out there, but the real world numbers just aren't.

I AM NOT BASHING PEOPLE THAT USE SYNTHETICS OR PROMOTE THEM!
People simply do the best they can with the knowledge they posses, and that is what we all do.

Here's a link to some PSI ratings BTW to those interested.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3162221

ARN Greencare · Feb 11, 2019

Eric502 said:
FWIW.... My VanG 37 efi was ran on valvoline racing 10w-30 conventional oil (for the zddp percentages) up until 100 hours. This season it is getting amsoil premium 20w-50. I was VERY close to putting in the amsoil small engine 10w-40, and I did put it in my kohler.

It is my opinion based on many, many sources of information I have read throughout the years that synthetic is by far superior to conventional. However that does not mean conventional is suited for everyone. It suits me to use synthetic for the hours I put on mowers per season. Someone else you has way more mowers and that puts more hours per season on them and thus mowers are traded for newer mowers more frequently.... the use of synthetics may not make sense. Especially if they are going oil changes every 2 weeks.

You might want to stick to your conventional VR 10w30 oil. Go to post #37 and click the link I provided. You will find that it has a higher film strength than anything Amsoil has ever made, and even higher than Valvoline's own synthetic racing oil.

rippinryno · Feb 11, 2019

ARN Greencare said:
Regularly serviced conventional oil is better for your engine than longer oil change intervals of any synthetic. Oil analysis will bear me out on that. Combustion causes oil to become acidic over time which accelerates the aging of your seals and promotes corrosion. Also there is moisture contamination, fuel dilution, dust, metal particles, all occuring during the usage of your engine, and there is no cure for any of this other than changing your oil.

Incorrect. An oil filter with cure dust, particles, and contamination. Moisture does not stay in oil very long if you are running your motors. It is 100% incorrect to state that conventional oil is better than longer oil change intervals of synthetic. The proven fact is that modern synthetics can run better lubrication for longer periods of time than conventional. THere is really no argument against that unless you ignore all things oil.

ARN Greencare said:
Synthetics also have a lower film strength rating than conventional oils unless the manufacture uses really expensive lubricant packages and friction modifiers. Castrol, Valvoline, even Oreily house brand multi viscosity conventional oils all tested consistently 90,000 PSI or more. Standard Amsoil usually tests under 80,000 PSI unless you buy their signature stuff, and I don't think Royal Purple even has an oil that exceeds 80,000 PSI.

Plenty of synthetics, including mobil 1 well over the 100,000 mark.

This is why I never bought into the Synthetic hype. The advertisements are out there, but the real world numbers just aren't.

I AM NOT BASHING PEOPLE THAT USE SYNTHETICS OR PROMOTE THEM!
People simply do the best they can with the knowledge they posses, and that is what we all do.

Here's a link to some PSI ratings BTW to those interested.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3162221[/QUOTE]

ARN Greencare · Feb 11, 2019

rippinryno said:
Incorrect. An oil filter with cure dust, particles, and contamination. Moisture does not stay in oil very long if you are running your motors. It is 100% incorrect to state that conventional oil is better than longer oil change intervals of synthetic. The proven fact is that modern synthetics can run better lubrication for longer periods of time than conventional. THere is really no argument against that unless you ignore all things oil.

Plenty of synthetics, including mobil 1 well over the 100,000 mark.

This is why I never bought into the Synthetic hype. The advertisements are out there, but the real world numbers just aren't.

I AM NOT BASHING PEOPLE THAT USE SYNTHETICS OR PROMOTE THEM!
People simply do the best they can with the knowledge they posses, and that is what we all do.

Here's a link to some PSI ratings BTW to those interested.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3162221

[/QUOTE]

Ever see an oil analysis? If so, you might remember some numbers next to items like iron, aluminum, lead, copper, etc. These reflect how much metal is in the oil, not withstanding the filter you mention, it is in there. Also in there you will see silica, this interpreted is dust/dirt/sand content. Why do you think the owners manual says to change oil more regularly in dusty condtions? A good example of dusty conditions is our mowers type of usage. And yes, you can find moisture in there too, especially in cool climates.

Read a few oil analysis', you will be enlightened. And if you think you can keep running oil to the point that these foreign material saturate the layer of oil film between moving parts without creating problems, you are mistaken. Especially when taking into consideration the PH taking a toll on parts.

And I never said synthetics did not have a 100,000+ PSI rating, but it takes alot more additives to get them there. Go check the link I sent you. The second highest PSI rating on the list was a conventional oil. And the top ten percent of the list was filled with conventionals that cost less than half of alot of there synthetic counter parts. Alot of highly touted names fell far below even Oreily's house brand of oil, even names such as Redline, Royal Purple, Amsoil, Mobil, among many others. There were scores of name brand synthetics that couldn't match even some cheaper conventionals.

Am I bashing people for running syntetics? By no means. But if you're gonna call me out, then back it up, not with your opinion, but with some info and numbers. And here is some info from Blackstone about oil change intervals. You can learn a thing or two if you take the time to read. https://www.blackstone-labs.com/wp-...tent/uploads/2018/04/Gas-Diesel-2013-07-01-How-Often-Should-I-Change-My-Oil.pdf

Here is a wealth of info, I highly recommend reading the reports of the month.https://www.blackstone-labs.com/information/newsletters/

So no 10w40 for Vanguards, wander why?

ARN Greencare

cruzenmike

ARN Greencare

ARN Greencare

Koehn's Lawn Service

Ridin' Green

weeze

aroddy

cruzenmike

ARN Greencare

ARN Greencare

ARN Greencare

Ridin' Green

weeze

StanWilhite

Eric502

ARN Greencare

ARN Greencare

rippinryno

ARN Greencare

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