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Surfactant or MSO with Q-Ball quinclorac

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RigglePLC

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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
Both Drive and Q-Ball labels say to include an MSO surfactant in the tank mix.
But this label says you can use a crop-oil-concentrate or a "quality surfactant".
So is MSO really necessary?
Drive label says "to achieve consistent weed control" include MSO surfactant.
Is any surfactant really necessary? By what percent does a surfactant increase the effectiveness?
By what percent is MSO better than, say, a non-ionic-surfactant like Surf-Ac?
https://www.domyown.com/surfac-820-nonionic-surfactant-p-3934.html

Is there a greater risk to fine fescue grass if surfactant is included?
Greater risk to bluegrass and ryegrass at high temperatures, if MSO is included?

I was reading through my notes from 2019.
 
#2 ·
I usually mix Li700 with any product that recommends a surfactant or oil. It's a blend of an NIS, soy derived phospholipids, and an acidifier.

I've tried straight MSO with quin to compare, they seemed to perform about equal.

It appears to me that most soluble products recommend an NIS while dry flowables favor the oils. Looking at crop oil labels it seems the ones that appear higher quality are a mix of oils and NIS.

There's a lot of recommendations for oils when plants are inactive too.

NIS lets you poison the well and oils crash the gate when that's not possible.
 
#5 ·
I sprayed a 35k sq/ft newly loamed and seeded lawn with Quichlorac and MSO last summer. The lawn was seeded in early summer, was cut three or four times. It was then devastated by red thread, and crabgrass took over. I get the call..."so and so says you can fix this". No win situation.

I rarely spray crabgrass, and if I do I usually just use lesco sticker/spreader with Quinchlorac and Triamine in a backpack for spot treating weeds in crabgrass season. The customer was spending a lot of $$ for this treatment, so I spent some time preparing. I decided to use the MSO based on the label and some other research.

Results were good. The customer was happy. It was late in the summer, so the crabgrass was near end of life anyway, but the customer insisted (over my advice to wait it out). Probably for the best, I got to it before it went to seed.

So a non-scientific and anecdotal example at best..but that's all I got.
 
#6 ·
One of my professors and I had a long convo about this topic at a trade show a few years back. He told me that MSOs will eat through the waxy coating better that your standard spreader/stickers and this is way they suggest using MSO with Drive. I also put a bit of liquid N in with it as the plant will absorb it faster when it thinks it's being fed food. Good luck Riggles.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
Mso will "eat through the waxy coating." Fine--will it eat through the coating on the grass leaves, at the same time? Does that mean when included it is less selective--could injure the grass? Especially fine fescue?
 
#9 ·
RigglePLC said:
Mso will "eat through the waxy coating." Fine--will it eat through the coating on the grass leaves, at the same time? Does that mean when included it is less selective--could injure the grass? Especially fine fescue?
Click to expand...
Yes.

RigglePLC said:
This Ortho product for weeds and crabgrass with quinclorac, does not say to add MSO.
It also says it is "rain-safe" in one hour.
It is essentially 2,4-D, and dicamba plus quinclorac.

https://www.amazon.com/Ortho-Killer...b&hvdev=c&hvqmt=b&keywords=weed+killer+ortho+concentrate&qid=1579144852&sr=8-10
Click to expand...
Consumer grade pesticides never recommend mixing anything but water.
 
#12 ·
That Guy Gary said:
Yes.

Consumer grade pesticides never recommend mixing anything but water.
Click to expand...
That is because most consumers do not have access to the right surfactants. They do not always accurately measure. They also are not spraying from equipment that can be calibrated either. Liability for manufacturers is extremely high under these circumstances.
 
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#14 ·
Digitaria Sanguinalis said:
dismiss nxt will annihilate nutsedge in 24 hours without MSO. Thus the reason for adding carfentrazone (NXT) to the mix.
Click to expand...
Maybe but not always the case
Digitaria Sanguinalis said:
dismiss nxt will annihilate nutsedge in 24 hours without MSO. Thus the reason for adding carfentrazone (NXT) to the mix.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say that that is always the case for me. I had a few situations last year when we sprayed it straight and after putting a bit of time into it, came back 6 weeks later and hate to respray. I just add a few ounces per gallon now.
 
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