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Discussion starter · #21 ·
Now that I think about the idea of locking casters, I would give some thought to a "momentary" fixed caster. Meaning...

The "lock" is spring-loaded to the "unlocked" position. The castor lock would require you to HOLD the castors in a fixed position, and they would return to a free-rotating state automatically when you let go of the caster lock.



Let's redefine terms, as I think it would be helpful...

Castors can rotate 360* = Free
Castors held at 0* / straight ahead = Fixed

I'm thinking of a foot-pedal for each caster wheel, that must be held down to keep the castors fixed. When you let go of the foot-pedals, springs automatically unlock, and return the castors to a Free state

There is no way to lock the castors in the fixed position.



It would increase hillside stability ONLY when you need the castors fixed.
I agree 100%. We are on the same page. Hopefully my opening post was clear on this but if not, what he said ^^^.
 
Discussion starter · #22 · (Edited)
Cub cadet has a commercial ZTR that operates with a steering wheel that turns the casters...
See Post #12 Above for a video of the Cub Cadet system. It uses a steering wheel and mechanical linkages.

The new fully electric zero turns can do this all with wires and electrons, no need for mechanical linkages, belts, pulleys etc.

Also, they can (in theory) do 4 wheel steering using the existing lap bars, no need for a steering wheel, center console or foot pedals for fwd/reverse.

EGO has already announced a 4 wheel steering Zero Turn to debut in 2023 that uses "fly by wire" synchronized 4 wheel steering with no mechanical linkages.

It's all controlled by electrons (hall effect sensors and potentiometers) connected to a logic board CPU circuit - the CPU reads the position of the lap bars and sends speed and angle info to the wheels and casters to do their magic.
 
See Post #12 Above for a video of the Cub Cadet system. It uses a steering wheel and mechanical linkages.

The new fully electric zero turns can do this all with wires and electrons, no need for mechanical linkages, belts, pulleys etc.

Also, they can do 4 wheel steering using the existing lap bars, no need for a steering wheel, center console or foot pedals for fwd/reverse.
Nothing wrong with mechanical linkage and pulleys. They fail at a much lower rate and cost far less to build. Unless you like needing to own a laptop to diagnose your lawn mower. Which, from the sound of your admiration, doesn’t bother you.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Some points...
All in all I think you’re trying to solve a problem with a different approach that is best solved with solutions that already exist. Try adding rear weights before building something. Tell us if that doesn’t fix the problem.
All good points. Agree with everything you said with one exception. The technology we are seeing come to market from Cub Cadet (synchro steer) and EGO (E-Steer) will certainly improve zero turn performance on sloped terrain because they integrate the front casters into the steering system of the machine.

The machine still may lose traction depending on the slope of the terrain and the suitability of the drive tires for the load, but I do believe these technologies will continue to be adopted into the marketplace and steerable casters will continue to be adopted as patents/licensing allows.
 
See Post #12 Above for a video of the Cub Cadet system. It uses a steering wheel and mechanical linkages.

The new fully electric zero turns can do this all with wires and electrons, no need for mechanical linkages, belts, pulleys etc.

Also, they can (in theory) do 4 wheel steering using the existing lap bars, no need for a steering wheel, center console or foot pedals for fwd/reverse.

EGO has already announced a 4 wheel steering Zero Turn to debut in 2023 that uses "fly by wire" synchronized 4 wheel steering with no mechanical linkages.

It's all controlled by electrons (hall effect sensors and potentiometers) connected to a logic board CPU circuit - the CPU reads the position of the lap bars and sends speed and angle info to the wheels and casters to do their magic.

At this point then, a conventional layout of large rear drive tires and front free-spinning castors doesn't even make sense to continue. Go with (4) indepenant, steerable, driven wheel units. A steer motor changes the direction. A mounted drive motor powers the machine.

4 wheel steering, 4-wheel drive, and 360* drive control = meaning, the machine can drive completely sideways.


Why even stick with a conventional layout at that point...?
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
Why even stick with a conventional layout at that point...?
Most likely because the conventional layout of a zero turn is a near perfect design for efficiently mowing grass.

The only issue with the current layout is that once you introduce a slope of greater than 15 degrees (or less with wet grass), the limitations of the design begin to affect performance.
 
Build a simple jig from 2x4s that capture the forks to keep them from turning as a prototype toseeif it evens works before you start drilling holes in stuff and welding on your mower
 
Most likely because the conventional layout of a zero turn is a near perfect design for efficiently mowing grass.

The only issue with the current layout is that once you introduce a slope of greater than 15 degrees (or less with wet grass), the limitations of the design begin to affect performance.
No. The conventional layout of large rear drive tires, and floating castor wheels at the front, works well when you're iterating on a basic design concept of twin independant hydraulic-drive systems, dating back to the 60's.

If you're going to ditch the hydraulic drive system in favor of electric drive & steering - why stick with the antiquated layout?

You could literally build a mower with (4) independent electro-steer castor wheels, each with it's own drive motor.



You might argue that it would be expensive. Yeah, so is a Wright ZK stander with dual tweels.

If you're wanting a cheap homeowner solution like the proposed EGO machine, then sure, stick with what's cheap. That person probably doesn't have much business navigating steep hills on a ZTR anyway...



If you're really wanting to improve hillside performance of a ZTR, a set of Carlisle AT101's at 7-10psi will drastically improve your hillside performance, to which, I can personally vouch for as someone who operates a 1,300lb eXmark X-series on hills significantly steeper than 15*, with regularity...
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
Build a simple jig from 2x4s that capture the forks to keep them from turning as a prototype toseeif it evens works before you start drilling holes in stuff and welding on your mower
I just removed the spindle dust cover and used a long handle breaker bar with a 1/2” socket over the nut to hold the fork straight.
 
All good points. Agree with everything you said with one exception. The technology we are seeing come to market from Cub Cadet (synchro steer) and EGO (E-Steer) will certainly improve zero turn performance on sloped terrain because they integrate the front casters into the steering system of the machine.

The machine still may lose traction depending on the slope of the terrain and the suitability of the drive tires for the load, but I do believe these technologies will continue to be adopted into the marketplace and steerable casters will continue to be adopted as patents/licensing allows.
Well, we will just have to agree to disagree then. I don’t think the synchro steer and E-Steer will make it. They’ll die out in my opinion. Companies like Cub Cadet aren’t the innovators they once were. Maybe on homeowner machines, but I severely doubt it makes it in the commercial market.
 
Discussion starter · #31 · (Edited)
Well, we will just have to agree to disagree then. I don’t think the synchro steer and E-Steer will make it. They’ll die out in my opinion. Companies like Cub Cadet aren’t the innovators they once were. Maybe on homeowner machines, but I severely doubt it makes it in the commercial market.
No problem. That’s what makes things interesting to debate.

I’m curious though, why you think cub cadet’s 4 wheel zero turn steering tech won’t make inroads into the commercial market?

I can think of two reasons: cost and the replacing of the lap bars for a steering wheel.

Cost will come down over time, but that steering wheel may be hard to overcome.
 
I'm not a mechanic but I'm gonna chime in. I avoid electronic complexity as much as possible and if it has to be controlled by a computer, I'm not interested. I'm not a Ludite. I've just read from guys on other forums about not being able to use their equipment due to a computer glitch and only the factory can reset it, and until then, they're dead in the water. If it's mechanical and can be removed if need be, then it might be more appealing. The more complex it is, the more it will cost to buy and repair. My 2 ¢.
 
Discussion starter · #33 · (Edited)
I'm not a mechanic but I'm gonna chime in. I avoid electronic complexity as much as possible and if it has to be controlled by a computer, I'm not interested. I'm not a Ludite. I've just read from guys on other forums about not being able to use their equipment due to a computer glitch and only the factory can reset it, and until then, they're dead in the water. If it's mechanical and can be removed if need be, then it might be more appealing. The more complex it is, the more it will cost to buy and repair. My 2 ¢.
The cub cadet tech is all mechanical. And it appears to be aimed at the commercial market.

The EGO tech is all electronic - including the lap bars, they are only connected to the driver motors by wiring - as is pretty much the whole mower stem to stern. The only moving parts are the drive wheels, the deck assembly, DC blade motors and the lap bars.

Unfortunately, both of these examples use a steering wheel instead of lap bars. There is a possibility that EGO delivers a lap bar model but that’s obviously a homeowner play so not of interest to most of you.
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
If you're really wanting to improve hillside performance of a ZTR, a set of Carlisle AT101's at 7-10psi will drastically improve your hillside performance, to which, I can personally vouch for as someone who operates a 1,300lb eXmark X-series on hills significantly steeper than 15*, with regularity...
That's good advice. Lowering tire pressure was one of the first things I did to improve slope performance on my Z6 zero turn and it does help. Also, filling all 6 battery slots (The mowers ship with 4, I bought a couple extra) adds more weight to the rear and has a positive effect on slope performance.
 
If you're really wanting to improve hillside performance of a ZTR, a set of Carlisle AT101's at 7-10psi will drastically improve your hillside performance, to which, I can personally vouch for as someone who operates a 1,300lb eXmark X-series on hills significantly steeper than 15*, with regularity...
Snapped these pictures today at a commercial account. Forgive the lack of precision. My intent was to use a magnetic angle finder, to show the true angle. Best I could do this evening was use the "level" assist on my phone's camera, and rotate/crop the image to measure the approximate slope.

Image


This first picture measures around 21 degrees using the above method. (Using the phone's level at capture, then rotating the captured photo until the mower appears level.) I have enough control on this incline to actually approach going downhill at an angle, stop, take a picture, steer uphill if I need to, etc...




Image


This picture starts at 11 degrees where the photo was taken. As I progress near the sign, the incline increases to around 26 degrees. That may be slightly inaccurate as to what the machine sees, as when I'm nearing the end, the right side tires are up on the road, so the machine won't see the full incline.

Regardless, it's uncomfortably steep. Yet, I still have enough authority to stop, and let passing cars go by, without getting hit by traffic, or falling down that embankment.




I have another commercial account where I'm mowing multiple passes on what I'm guessing is a 15* slope.

This is done with pretty good confidence, and very good control.

Machine is an eXmark X-series zero-turn. 60" cut width, around 1,300 lbs, and 24x12-12 Carlisle AT101 tires. These are far superior to turf tires anywhere slopes, or muddy conditions are concerned.
 
Image

This is my first ztr I bought back in 2011. If you look at the top of yokes you'll see the flat discs I machined from circular saw blade.
Then threaded two counter sunk holes to bolt it to yokes. Then I added brackets to hold disc brake caliper pads for go carts. It actually worked but.... Within no time brackets got bent and twisted. So I removed them but left the discs on. What I did learn was.
Once I learned the machine I didn't need caster brakes. Also it could cause you to get into dangerous situations that you shouldn't be in, in the first place.
Twas a good experiment though.
Best thing I've found for hills is AT-101 tires. Best gription with less turf damage.
 
Discussion starter · #38 · (Edited)
View attachment 521834
This is my first ztr I bought back in 2011. If you look at the top of yokes you'll see the flat discs I machined from circular saw blade.
Then threaded two counter sunk holes to bolt it to yokes. Then I added brackets to hold disc brake caliper pads for go carts. It actually worked but.... Within no time brackets got bent and twisted. So I removed them but left the discs on. What I did learn was.
Once I learned the machine I didn't need caster brakes. Also it could cause you to get into dangerous situations that you shouldn't be in, in the first place.
Twas a good experiment though.
Best thing I've found for hills is AT-101 tires. Best gription with less turf damage.
Thanks for sharing this! Very helpful. I believe bad boy did something very similar and still offers it as a kit. Definitely good to hear your first hand experience with such a system.
Image



With that said though, over the last several days with trial and error on the machine and, I have found that a combination of (1) lowering the rear tire pressure (2) better weight distribution by moved the larger/heaviest batteries to the back of the 6 bay compartment (3) more stick time and practice devoted solely to handling on slopes...

With all of the above, I've pretty much negated need of caster locks, but I'm still interested in engineering a prototype just for the experience of it.

I'm also looking forward to seeing more models in the coming years employ 4 wheel steering (using the existing lap bars) as a better/safer means of control than the existing 2 wheel steering.
 
Discussion starter · #39 · (Edited)
For what it's worth, here is the Z6 mower's battery compartment where you can see how the batteries can be distributed fore and aft to help shift weight distribution - I moved my heaviest batts to the back to lighten the front casters a bit more - this is a stock photo):

Image
 
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