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I have a customer with a 24 volt pool transformer who wants me to add lights in her back yard utilizing the existing transformer. Do I just use existing fixtures available, change the bulbs to 24 volt, and wire everything to deliver equal voltage to all lamps. I installed a Unique system Multimatic with well lights in the front yard and would like to also use well lights in the back. Is there a 24 volt PAR available yet?

Thanks TDF
 

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YEs, you just switch the lamps to 24v and away you go........as for the Par36 24v lamp. We just wrapped up our own in house testing of GE's 24v par lamp. Once they conclude their testing we will have one. We are not expecitng to see one until years end at the soonest or early 2009. For now our only real option is to install Big Bangs with the MR16 socket and once the Par becomes available you can retro fit.


Let me know if you have any other questions.
 

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I got a catalog in the mail from Q-Tran. On page 2 it highlights some topics such as "Outdoor Landscape Lighting - Under 15 Volts," "Pool & Sp - Under 15 Volts," Outdoor Landscape Lighting - 15 to 30 Volts," and " Indoor open Conductor Systems - Under 30V."

They state in their "Outdoor Landscape Lighting -15 to 30 Volts" section: "CSA Certified for both the U.S. and Canada to UL-2108 Standard with a listing of "Low Voltage Luminaire Power Supply" for lamps operating at 12 or 24 volts where the secondary voltage is between 15 to 30 volts. Please note that the secondary wiring must be installed 18" below grade per the N.E.C."
 

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Thanks Ned. I would still ask Q-Tran to then provide you with WHERE in the NEC that it states this. Here is why......UL2108,1838,1598, etc..have no installation details. They are only approvals for products and that is it. The NEC makes the rules on installations. So I turned to my trusty NEC manual which sits on my desk and reffered back to the applicable table that tells you bury depths.

NEC Article 300.5 Wireing Methods /Underground Installations

Table 300.5 Min. Cover Requirements, 0-600VOLTS, Nominal, Burial in Millimeters (Inches)

Column 5
Circuits for Contol of Irrigation and Landscape Lighting Limited to Not More Than 30 VOLTS and installed with TYPE UF or in Other Identified Cable or Raceway.​

Location of Wireing Method or Circuit

All location not specfied below: 55mm or 6" DEEP

In trench below 50-mm (2") thick concrete or equivelant: 150mm or 6" DEEP

Under Building: 0mm 0" IN RACEWAY ONLY

Under min. of 102-mm (4") thick concrete exterior slab with no vehicular traffic and the slab extending not less than 152mm (6") beyond the underground installation: 150mm or 6" DEEP

Under streets, highways, roads, alleys, driveways, and parking lots: 600mm or 24" DEEP

One and two family dwelling driveways and outdoor parking areas, and used only for dwelling-related purposes: 450mm or 18" DEEP

In or under airport runways, including adjacent areas where trespassing prohibited: 450mm or 18" DEEP


So again I would ask for the facts. This may or may not be directly applying to the limitations of their own Q-Wire. But no where in the NEC can I find information supporting their claims here. Let me know if I can help any further.
 

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Hi everyone,
It has clearly taken me a while but i am finally on this great forum. I know that this is an old topic but i would love to get some responses to my understandings...

I think that Joseph is correct for installations that are per Chapter 3 of the NEC. This means that wiring be enclosed in conduit or line voltage direct burial cable be used.
Landscape power limited lighting cable (The low voltage type) is only allowed to be used with UL Listed Landscape Lighting systems. These systems are UL Listed to UL-1838 and as such are limited to 15V AC max. Attached is the UL guide card for UL-1838 explaining the limitations.

The NEC requires an installer of a low voltage system to wire in accordance with the requirements for Article 411 (Low Voltage lighting luminaires and systems). Article 411 requires Chapter 3 wiring means unless the system is Listed for the purpose which is where UL-1838 comes in.

Luminaires that are Listed to UL-1838 shall be installed per the attached guide card and shall be limited to 15V AC max. No exceptions.

Luminaires Listed to UL-1598 shall be wired per NEC Chapter 3 requirements. No exceptions.

Luminaires Listed to UL-2108 shall be wired per NEC Chapter 3 requirements. Exceptions to exist for this Standard and the consideration shall be given to the luminaire installation instruction for additional options.
 

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I believe the post about 24volt systems is incorrect after reviewing art. 411 in the NEC 2008.
Article 411 Lighting Systems Operating at 30 Volts or Less states:

411.1 Scope. This article covers lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less and their associated components.

411.2 Definition.
Lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less. A lighting system consisting of an isolating power supply, the low voltage luminaries, and associated equipment that are all identified for the use. The output circuits of the power supply are not rateded for not more than 25 amperes and operate at 30 volts (42.4 volts peak) or less under all load conditions.

411.3 Listing Required. Lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less shall comply with 411.3(A) or 411.3(B).

(A) Listed System. Lighting systems operating at 30 volts or less shall be LISTED as a complete system. The luminaries, power supply, and luminaire fittings (including the exposed bare conductors) of an exposed bare conductor lighting system shall be LISTED for the use as part of the same identified lighting system.
(B) Assembly of listed parts. A lighting system assembled from the following listed parts shall be permitted:
(1) Low-voltage luminaries
(2) Low-voltage luminaire power supply
(3) Class 2 power supply
(4) Low-voltage luminaire fittings
(5) Cord (secondary circuit) for which the luminaries and power supply are listed for use
(6) Cable, Conductors in conduit, or other fixed wiring method for the secondary circuit.
The luminaries, power supply, and luminaire fittings shall be listed for use as part of same identified lighting system.

UL listed or UL 18383 is not referenced anywhere in the NFPA 70 NEC. The NEC Article 100 Definitions. (see Listed)
LISTED. Equipment, materials, or services included in a list published by an organization that is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and concerned with evaluation of products or services, that maintains periodic inspection of production of listed equipment or materials or periodic evaluation of services, and whose listing states that either the equipment, material, or service meets appropriate designated standards or has been tested and found suitable for a specified purpose.

One way the NFPA references information related to the code is in the form of fine print notes. (see article 90.5)
Article 90.5(C) Explanatory material, such as references to other standards, references to related sections of this code, or information related to a code rule, is included in this code in the form of fine print notes (FPNs). Fine print notes are informational only and are not enforceable as requirements of this code. Brackets containing section references to another NFPA document are for informational purpose only and are provided as a guide to indicate the source of the extracted text. These bracketed references immediately follow the extracted text.

There is not one FPN in article 411

I contacted the DCA department of codes and standards in NJ. They said that as long as the system is installed according to ART. 411, and the equipment is listed 12 or 24 volt there will be no problem. They said the system must be listed by an recognized testing agency. UL does not write laws they are a private testing agency.

In the state of NJ, 10v or more must be installed by a licensed electrical contractor which includes the installation of landscape lighting.
 

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Thank you for posting this. Its nice to see someone calling their local Authorities to get information we have been trying to explain for years!

A manufacturer who recently was opened up in the east coast has an obviously new rep running around telling people that we are illegal because we dont have a UL label. He is also telling them our sockets arent rated for 24v....which is true.....they are rated for 250v and 1000W! The real kicker....the company he represents isnt even UL approved, they are ETL approved! LIKE US! hahah crazy.
 

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Hi everyone,
Here is some information regarding some of the confusion regarding 12V VS 24V

The code that is referred to is per Chapter 3 of the NEC. This means that wiring be enclosed in conduit or line voltage direct burial cable be used.

Landscape power limited lighting cable (The low voltage type) is only allowed to be used with UL Listed Landscape Lighting systems. These systems are UL Listed to UL-1838 and as such are limited to 15V AC max. Attached is the UL guide card for UL-1838 explaining the limitations.

The NEC requires an installer of a low voltage system to wire in accordance with the requirements for Article 411 (Low Voltage lighting luminaires and systems). Article 411 requires Chapter 3 wiring means unless the system is Listed for the purpose which is where UL-1838 comes in.

Luminaires that are Listed to UL-1838 shall be installed per the attached guide card and shall be limited to 15V AC max. No exceptions.

Luminaires Listed to UL-1598 shall be wired per NEC Chapter 3 requirements. No exceptions.

Luminaires Listed to UL-2108 shall be wired per NEC Chapter 3 requirements. Exceptions to exist for this Standard and the consideration shall be given to the luminaire installation instruction for additional options.
 

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Actually UL1838 is referenced in the NEC2008 NFPA70 under Annex A. Additionally the only place where low voltage wire is mentioned in the NEC is under UL1838.

As everyone knows UL1838 limits the output voltage to a maximum of 15volts. Therefore you can NOT use low voltage cable unless you have a transformer and luminaries listed to 1838. UL1838 allows low voltage underground cable- no other listing permits this wire type.
 

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Actually UL1838 is referenced in the NEC2008 NFPA70 under Annex A. Additionally the only place where low voltage wire is mentioned in the NEC is under UL1838.

As everyone knows UL1838 limits the output voltage to a maximum of 15volts. Therefore you can NOT use low voltage cable unless you have a transformer and luminaries listed to 1838. UL1838 allows low voltage underground cable- no other listing permits this wire type.
Good luck enforcing that! I just installed 2- 1838 transformers. 2-H-Force 1838 watt 24 volt transformers that is, and guess what wire I used? You guessed it!
 
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