Estimating is the key to fair pricing. For residential, for the most part, if they are small, eyeballing is the best method. When eyeballing, consider all the trees, trimming, hillsides and whatever else deviates from a flat pie yard and price accordingly.Generally, your unmeasurable will be what varies your time the most. One can measure and price and still not meet their revenue expectations.
The chemical applicators measure because they need to know how much liquid to spray for each yard.
For big lawns, one needs to measure footage and then add time for variables.
Meier: No rate card, but a computer program based on Excel that includes graduated per square foot charge based upon overhead, multiplier to consider degree of difficulty, separate edging and trimming charges based on liner feet, blowing as a percentage of edging and trimming, per obstacle charge, mobilization fee as a percentage of the total and a minimum. You were on the right track with square foot pricing. You just didn't recognize the differences between squirt and fert and cutting, edging, trimming and blowing a specific property because you didn't have the experience (not a criticisim). Square foot pricing can and does work as long as you know your costs and account for the individual property characterictistics. I have seen pricing set just by experience, by a $ amount per inch of mower deck, by $ amount per hour or minute and moon phase. I'm sure there are many more methods I've never heard about. You are on the right path and now you know how much and how long because you have been timed (before I start the mower on each job I start the stop watch). This is a competitive business. The more you know the better you can price your service. The right price for you may be higher than the price for which someone else is willing to do the job. So what? If you can't show a profit, don't do the job. Let the other guy loose money and move on. Refine your pricing model and you will have confidence that your bid is the right price for your costs.
++++Of course a corner lot is going to be more (even if it's the same sq. ft. as the neighbors), because there will be more trimming/edging/blowing. So when I see that, I price higher.++++
How much higher are you pricing a corner lot than the same sized, non-corner lot?
Around here in the DFW area, I'm finding that these lots aren't fetching much more than non-cornered lots. Maybe $5 or so. But from what I learned yesterday with the stop watch, a cornered lot will take me about 50% longer than a non-cornered lot on average. Same for the alley drive lots too.
Truth be told, I could drop my prices on almost all of the non-cornered, front drive lots by a slight percentage and still make good money. But why would I do that? The market will bear this pricing.
On the flip side, my alley drive & corner lots need to have pricing increases of around 40 to 75%, generally. That's a tough sell. Much tougher than quoting the "in-line-with-expectations" price of $25 on a non-cornered, front drive lot and making more per hour than my stated goal. As for the corner lots & alley drive lots, in order to make the same kind of dollar per hour that I make on the good lots, I'd have to price these above $40 per cut. As I mentioned earlier, my neighbor pays an established professional LCO $28/cut. Again, I think it's in line with the expectation bobbyged was complaining about...to be around $25 per cut.
I guess what I'm saying is, there is a HUGE difference between the work requirements on a corner lot or alley drive lot than there is on a standard, non-corner, front drive lot. Much bigger than almost all homeowners realize and probably most of the LCO's too.
Well, since this has thread has changed course a bit, I thought I'd chime in again.
I agree that trimming, edging and blowing can take up a lot of time, but I don't think I've got any that take anywhere near 50% of the total time. Something sounds wrong there.
One of the biggies on pricing for me is accesss. I have some beach accounts where I can't get my trailer anywhere near the property. I either have to park the trailer several hundred feet away and make multiple trips back and forth, or do a special trip with the truck only. These tiny lots take me as long or longer than some of my 1/2 acre lots.
Then there's the "stuff I've gotta move" factor. Having to move all sorts of lawn furniture etc. can take a lot of time. One of the complaints I hear from customers about their lawn service is that they don't move anything. I only move one way...move it to an area that's already cut and leave it there.
++++I agree that trimming, edging and blowing can take up a lot of time, but I don't think I've got any that take anywhere near 50% of the total time++++
How many square feet is your average stop?
Have you ever had anyone ride along with a stop watch to see how much of your time is actually spent mowing?
I did 10 lawns yesterday. On average, 45% of my time was spent mowing. The remainder of the day is edging, trimming & blowing. The largest lawn was 5,000 sq ft. The smallest was about 1,200 sq ft.
I think the perception with home owners and with most LCO's is that the more lawn, the more the price should be. I think most LCO's completely under-estimate the edging, trimming & blowing aspect of the business. I'm convinced this is the case in the DFW area.
Unless you're mowing huge lawns, I doubt you're doing much different with the % of time mowing vs % of time edging, trimming & blowing. I'd guess you're mowing larger lawns based on that comment.
But I will say that until I was timed yesterday, I had absolutely no idea how much time I was spending on each task individually. It was eye opening, to say the least.
Originally posted by darryl gesner I agree that trimming, edging and blowing can take up a lot of time, but I don't think I've got any that take anywhere near 50% of the total time. Something sounds wrong there.
Darryl,
I have one customer that wants me exclusively for my trimming ability. And yes, I let her know up front what she's paying for, and yes, she's fine with it. Frankly, I can't figure out what's so hard about this whole thing. On a new lawn, I punch my watch timer when I unload and punch it again when I load up. I charge $1/minute and if it's a single lawn I add $5 for driving. If it's near another account I leave off the $5 for driving. Also, I realize that once I get used to the lawn I should be able do it a bit faster. Simple........
Pete
++++Frankly, I can't figure out what's so hard about this whole thing. On a new lawn, I punch my watch timer when I unload and punch it again when I load up. I charge $1/minute++++
I'd love to find customers who would let me mow their lawns a few times, figure out how long it'll take and then I could quote them a price. Or if I could just say $40/hr. $60/hr would be even better.
Any chance a new customer would let a guy mow the lawn a few times and then quote a price? That would work about 100% of the time...no under bidding, no over bidding. The right price every time.
Meier - There are people on this site who give a ballpark price and then adjust after a mow or two. I could see this working with a referal, but can't see it on a competitive bid. There are others here who do the first cut free and then give a price. I've thought of trying that but haven't.
By the way, what are you using for equipment? I'd guess 21 inch mower for lawns that size. Backpack blower or handheld? BP saves a lot of time because you can blow from 20 feet away.
++++By the way, what are you using for equipment? I'd guess 21 inch mower for lawns that size. Backpack blower or handheld? BP saves a lot of time because you can blow from 20 feet away.++++
Stihl back pack, 32" Ferris Hydro & 21" Honda Hydro. Hate using the Honda...too slow.
Free the first time wouldn't really bother me as long as I knew I'd get the job and the customer wouldn't cancel any time soon. Won't get a guarantee like that from any customers, though. Other huge problem: I've noticed I don't hit max efficiency until about the 3rd or 4th mowing. First mowing can take 1.5 to 3 times as long as the fourth mowing.
Still working on a pricing formula. In the mean time, I'll measure and eye-ball. I can probably do pretty well with that, actually.
Originally posted by bobbygedd a dollar a minute is not a good way to do it. we have some lawns that we get $27, -$30, and take sometimes 16-20 minutes.
Yup, they are always the "good ones" and always the "bad ones"........ I'm just suggesting a rule of thumb so you don't lose your shirt.........
Also, lawns are always easier in the summer when there's less weed whacking.......
The way I see it, there will always be that person, who is gonna bid these jobs cheap. The kid down the street, A guy in a Pinto stationwagon with a 20" Murray, or someone just trying make money with no thought about replacing his equipment.
With that in mind, do you really want the customers who from day one want to barter with you on price. In my experience they're the ones that criticize your work the most, follow you around, try and stretch out the mow dates and the famous "its not very tall in the back" statement on the phone. They will also drop you in a heartbeat from the $35 to the first guy that offers a lower price. That's not the kind of customer who will order more services, give out referrals or be understanding when you get behind.
Originally posted by Switchless@aol.com Yup, they are always the "good ones" and always the "bad ones"........ I'm just suggesting a rule of thumb so you don't lose your shirt.........
Also, lawns are always easier in the summer when there's less weed whacking.......
Bobbygedd has posted some pretty ridiculous prices on other threads that several members thought were sky high. No wonder he's not getting any customers.
Rates vary from place to place, sometimes a lot. But sometimes the going rate is just $25. Love it or leave it. But let's look at that price. What size lawn is it? How long does it take? I'd do $25 lawns all day if I could be in and out in 25 minutes. And it's not peanuts. I do many Tall Fescue simple lawns where I get $30 and am in and out in 25 minutes. I don't feel underpaid.
25 minutes work time plus 10 minutes drive/load/unload time per yard, on average. That's 35 minutes a lawn.
Working 8am to 6pm, that's 600 minutes a day.
600 divided by 35 equals 17.14.
17.14 times $25 equals $428 per day.
4 days/week of mowing , just 40 hours of work, (accounting for rain, breakdowns, maintenance, rest, shrub work, etc) and a simple mow/blow/go operation could gross $1712/week.
That means you're netting maybe $1500 a week after your expenses. That's $37.50 NET per hour. That would be what someone making a $75,000 salary would make(and that person puts in more like 55 hours a week, counting commute time) That income is in the top 20% of US household income. Hardly a poor man's wage. Of course we usually can't get this level of income 50 weeks a year. But those of us who CAN do other things in the off season can.
If you want to be in a business with high barriers of entry, where income levels are sky high, and nobody can just jump in and compete with you...I suggest going to medical school. $200,000 and 8 years or so and you'll be all set and worry free.
Originally posted by little green guy There's no tax on new construction such as landscape installs and lawn on new houses. But on lawn maintenance and services there is. ( In new Jersey at least) By the way I don't have pest. #'s on my trucks but thats because I don't do fert. and the acconts that I do have to fertilize are sub'd out to a lisensced company. Also, I havn't bid a lawn under 40.00 this year. I gotta get at least 40 to stop. I don't care what everyone else is lowballing, I gotta get paid to do this stuff or else I'll stay home.
Hey, whatever works for ya. But you're telling us that if a lawn took 10 minutes and a customer would pay you $35, you'd pass? You're leaving money on the table there, big time. Why not be flexible and just charge for the time it takes you, whatever that turns out to be? Factor in drive time, of course.
My average lawn is only $34.85. The most profitable ones I do are the lower priced smaller ones. I'm in and out quick and nobody ever complains about the price.
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