1. Missed the live Ask the Expert event?
    Catch up on the conversation about fertilization strategies for success with the experts at Koch Turf & Ornamental in the Fertilizer Application forum.

    Dismiss Notice

Anyone modify PermaGreens to spray tea?

Discussion in 'Organic Lawn Care' started by Chris Burisek, Dec 29, 2008.

  1. growingdeeprootsorganicly

    growingdeeprootsorganicly LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 766

    your right tree to a point, should anybody just go on bills words?
    where's all this testing he says has been done? he's proven too me he can't be trusted. and the simple fact what his product is and what it isn't.
    and yes cost is a joke
  2. Tim Wilson

    Tim Wilson LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 795


    As I recall, your product has a limited number of dormant bacillus bacteria species (4 to 6?) with some mycorrhizal spores. Please do correct me if I mis-state.

    When I brew an aerated compost tea, I evaluate it to have; multiple strains of live motile bacillus bacteria, likely combined with some strains of archaea, likely combined with some PNSBs (if I have brewed with light and quality fish hydrolysate; especially high with a reddish color CT), motile rods and cocci are everywhere (minimum 10,000/20X), multiple strains of flagellates, often combined with several strains of naked amoebae and testate amoebae and usually some ciliates; several strains of live growing degrader type fungal hyphae of a 6 micron minimum diameter but up to 10 and 12 microns.

    What strains of degrader fungi (not myc) are in your product? What strains of protozoa or cysts are in your product?

    I know of two large brewers operating in the USA. One is on a 4000 acre grain farm. He is using a 4000 gallon brewer and I have done consulting for the farmer, setting him up with microscopy analysis. The other is a 1000 gallon brewer on a 1200 acre hay farm in Texas. I designed this brewer using my 'trade secret' method. They are set up with a microscope for analysis and are brewing ACT (AAACT) every 32 to 36 hours with a full complement of nutrient cycling microbes, including flagellates (7 to 10/20X) which in SFI terms is
    32,500/ml/g. They are finishing brews with a DO2 >10 PPM.

    Tell me how this could not be applied to 8000 customers with little lawns?
  3. treegal1

    treegal1 LawnSite Gold Member
    Messages: 3,911

    yes and to top it off he came and seen my operation that cared for at the time 750 acres, or 300 customes, now with Eve running the south operation and Dominic running vero almost 2000 acres, and at least 1200 customers. so how he says its not possible...................

    and that's using some of my BS little 250 gallon tea brewers that are hand laid fiber glass, just wait till I get my molds back and have a chop gun to lay glass with.......
  4. JDUtah

    JDUtah LawnSite Silver Member
    from UT
    Messages: 2,636

    Not trying to upset here. But seeing as everyone wants Bill to produce this amazing scientific peer reviewed information about his product... why don't we flip a coin? What peer reviewed studies can you guys produce about your products?!?!?!

    What peer reviewed studies do you have to prove that the majority of the active species you apply (as listed above) stay alive/active after you apply your CT? I ask you how long do they stay active? Under what soil moisture %? SOM? Ph? TDS? Soil temp? What benefit does the variety provide? (Remember, with the standard you guys hold Bill to, I will only accept peer reviewed sources, not field experience)

    The point is, you guys call Bill on the carpet saying he can't "scientifically prove" his stuff works while at the same time... YOU CAN'T prove it either! HELLOOOOOO? Do you get the point?

    So he is a company pushing his product. SO ARE YOU! At least his product is registered and approved for applications. And before you go thinking I am standing up for Bill know that I have tested the 123 and have chosen not to use it in my program. It's just the silly hypocritical standards that ruffle my feathers. Thinking clearly and as a regulated business (which you guys are) Bill's product is more advanced than yours.

    The only one that has a decent argument is Tree... although... if people can use Bill's product in place of fert successfully... their profit margins will go up, not down. How many square feet can one of your AACT applicators handle per day? How many people need to be at the shop preparing enough brew for that applicator to use the next day? These numbers are important when comparing apples to oranges.

    This post was not directed to Tim.
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2008
  5. treegal1

    treegal1 LawnSite Gold Member
    Messages: 3,911

    first up bills ok, we dont always seen eye to eye, but thats the way it is.

    next any class 1 or 2 bio solid is approved, be it in aact or just as compost, by hand or otherwise, wet dry upside down or back.

    can you see the tea alive on the plant days later, yes!!!

    peer reviewed not from my mouth, well maybe once or twice, but not at bill, reproducible tests for ct, thats a good one, we dont really want the same tea every time, kind of like food, different types and lots of different ways!!

    JD do you ask the bakery for peer reviews or a test and or chemical break down for you daily bread??? real bakery and they dont even say whats in it?? or store loaf with a quick run down and nut allergy info???

    no it goes by taste and results, my favorite is Andalusia bakery real Cuban bread hot and soft!!! i go out of my way for it and have no idea just that it tastes great and I trust the baker!!!!ok

    now the south operation does it with 2 250 gallon brewer hand made except the air blowers,

    Monday, am, start the water and air, add some vit C tabs and kelp, screen compost and load vans. then its add the casts and brew, load already brewing tea.and let the air keep on blowing, add some water( de clor. already) go spray tea, 10-3.

    one man stayes at the shop and does the other things for the next day

    Tue, run out the last of the tea, refresh brewer and start it over again, reload vans compost and so on and go, again some one at the shop to do the other things......

    wenday no shop help no compost, just tea from the # 1 brewer about 125 gallons same as any other day, add water and let it coast.

    Thursday the rest of # 1's brew comes out, same steps with compost and all.

    Friday and sat same, save for sat is only 1/2 day, wash and start a new brew for mon, or swap over brews.

    the compost is done off site and stored in a ply wood box, 20 yards at a time, 4x8 worm bed, 6x10 brew space and a small office and dry storage. rent 375 month, comes with one light and 4 receptacles.

    phones 300$


    lead 1200$week
    shop man 475$ week41/2 days off wed.
    ride along labor 4 days at 80$= 320$ short days and paid lunch930- 400.

    lets say 75 acres a week with with way to much tea, 300 total acres. not to bad really. they dont mow or anything but tea and compost and so far it works really good...

    DUSTYCEDAR LawnSite Fanatic
    from PA
    Messages: 5,132

    see she had a plan and its workin
  7. JDUtah

    JDUtah LawnSite Silver Member
    from UT
    Messages: 2,636

    Good... but does that mean the plan people make to use Bill's tea will not work? I do not think so.... I wasn't the one saying a program is unfeasible here.
  8. Tim Wilson

    Tim Wilson LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 795

    To be really clear. I am not putting down Bill's products. You can find a post on one of these forums where I've defended such microbe specific products. I was just arguing against the point that ACT is not applicable in a large operation and highlighting the differences with ACT.

    I believe at least two microbulator owners use Bill's products with satisfaction.
  9. JDUtah

    JDUtah LawnSite Silver Member
    from UT
    Messages: 2,636

    Thank you for clarifying.

    Bottom line is... it (whatever 'it' is) can be done, and a diversity of products/practices builds strength... I hope none of us ever get caught saying something isn't possible...

    Like with the PG, with the right mods it might be a good CT tool to have.
  10. ICT Bill

    ICT Bill LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,115

    If you look at the typical company making their own compost tea with brewers they are typically do it yourselfers, no doubt about it they love to get the pipes and fittings and make their own compost and do trial and error stuff and throw in some worms and have a ball. I love it, it is my back ground growing up in Boulder Co. I worked for green mountain herbs that supplied celestial seasonings many moons ago. Go for it have a ball, I may even help if asked. ACT is a marvelous product once the learning curve and the fear of killing stuff is over.

    Now lets look at a company that may be in several states and has 1000's of customers. These are companies that have been around for many years and have certain procedures in place for every task.
    Now try to dump a brewer and some compost food stock at the site and transition these folks into an organic program. Good luck

    Its not bad or good, it is about the application. what are you trying to get accomplished

Share This Page