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Are many of us responsible for LOWBALLERS in the mower parts and accessory industry?

3K views 25 replies 18 participants last post by  lawnman_scott 
#1 ·
Another thread got me to thinking. I have saw the vast multitudes of users on this site who get fighting mad over lowballers and scrubs. People always talk about how we should make x amount of dollars per hour. If not we are only driving the price down for the rest of us in the industry. Or how someone came by and undercut us by $5.00 and got our account. And how %#*^ mad we are about it.

Now we are also one industry that sems to be bound and determined that alot of us are gonna shop around and find our mower parts and accessories as cheap as we can find em. Some completely forsake their neighborhood independently owned dealer to buy their parts from some online company on the oppoisite side of the United States because they are cheaper.

Isn't this the same as " The pot calling the kettle black"? or metal or whatever?I used to have a LARGE greenhouse business for my area.Alocal Southern States store would constantly flood the airways of the local radio station with ads about keeping your money in the county and supporting your locally owned and operated Southern States store. Do you think they would buy plants from me? Heck no!:angry: They would not even look at my plants. They said all their plants come from Bonnie Plant Farm and would continue to do so.
So as you can tell, I personally do not think much of the idea of buying from some far off or online place. What is everyone elses opinion of this?
 
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#2 ·
I'm one to complain about lowballers, but I am also one who price shops on certain things just to get a good deal. Here is the way I look at it, people who are price shopping for a service don't realize that a lot of times the real cheap peoples service aint worth a crap, where as the real high priced people are just ripping people off. I like to be in the middle of them. I look at it different for a product though, if I know of a product I want, brand name, part number etc... I am going to shop around for the cheapest price because I know what I am getting. All of the sellers should get the product at the same price. I hope this makes sense cause im just rambling on now.
 
#3 ·
It may be the same thing. When my dealer charges $48 for a set of blades that I can get for $24, why would I go belly up? Competition make america work. Will the dealer go out of business or lower his prices? Will you go out of business or lower your prices? It only means we must get better at what we do and how we do it. Luckly for us there is a lot of thing we can change. So I think, Change we must, and change I will. That is why I read this site so much.

Bill
 
#4 ·
No bad points made but Littleriver you say "Will you go out of business or lower your prices?" They are one in the same. I know there are alot of people out there that are ripping people off and also those on the opposite end. For example I charge $35 for a lawn to make money and the next guy comes along and charges $30 or even $25. Lower my price to get/keep the account? While I know that I am not ripping these people off nor am I cheating myself I can not compete with the typical "lowballer". I have never said anything about any of these threads about "lowballers" as to what I think a lowballer is.
1. Doesn't pay taxes
2. Not insured

That is it. If you have both 1. and 2. then in MY MIND I don't believe that anyone has the right to call you a lowballer (Speaking of just cutting grass mind you)

My point is no I will not lower my prices to stay in business I will just do a lot better of a job then the next guy. Make a guy pay his taxes and insurance and see how his prices change. 5 and 10 dollars per job seem small compared to the thousands you pay in taxes and insurance.
 
#5 ·
I look at it this way. If your crying about lowballers, well then sell yourself to customers who want their lawn maintained, not hacked down every couple weeks to keep the city off them. As for mower parts, if you want a mechanic, maybe they will have the parts and will fix it today, or maybe not..... so if not, then buy the parts cheaper somewhere else and fix it yourself. This is what I do, and if i need to go to a dealer for something i dont expect them to drop everything for me, and if someone bids a lawn cheaper than me, well so be it. It is still a free country the last time I looked.
 
#6 ·
if lowballers want to be around, thats fine by me, they just make my quality of work look that much better. But when it comes to them applying illegal pesticides, or providing the customer with inaccurate information that hurts our industry, that is when I get mad.
 
#7 ·
Husker, I like your definition of lowballers. It is the best I've heard yet. But what about the ones who have no insurance and don't pay taxes but they have nice equipment and do a great job, all the time charging the same high dollar as if they were paying insurance and taxes?:laugh:
 
#8 ·
The marketplace determines the price of goods and services. We are providing a product. That product has a cost. Each of us has a different cost for our product. If we are working on a thin margin, or high cost, then we have little room for price adjustment. Efficiency in our product reduces cost. What we strive for. Lower costs equals higher margins. With this advantage we are able to gain market-share by reducing our margin, or profit. We then can drive the inefficient providers from the marketplace.
 
#9 ·
I agree 100% with Husker. That's the difference between the lowballers and us, Taxes & Insurance. But to answer the question about shopping for a lower price again its's all about the product or service your getting, if you can get the same blades at a lower price then I say get them, but if you buy sh-tty blades or any piece of equipment just because it's cheaper,then you are a moron. Also it comes down to loyalty, thi word is a two way street if you have a local guy ( dealer ) who is loyal to you and treats you well, the you should give him the business or at least give him the chance to compete with the lower price.
 
#10 ·
What a lousy topic. Everyone does what they need to survive. It all matters how hungry you are. If you know you have high prices and you know people shop around, you better try to make the price a little more closer. My local dealer drives a Hummer, you think i buy a lot of stuff from him? I want to drive the Hummer and i will do what it takes to get it.
 
#11 ·
Well, what a touchy subject. I for one believe that we are responsible for the economy of this nation. As consumers where we shop and what we buy determines the price and the quailty of the product and service. At one time you could purchase about any product you could think of and it would be made at an American factory by American people and have American Quaility. Then as people started wanting cheaper products they started sacrificeing quality for price. Then when they beat the manufacture down so much on price and the quality couldnt get anyworse the maufacturer had to layoff employees just to stay in business. But still that wasnt enough. As consumers we still wanted cheaper prices and the only way the manufacturer could stay in business was to relocate his factory out of country. Doing this he laid off the rest of his employees and hired newones in foriegn countries that would work for cheaper wages with less benefits. Now the American people are un-employed so they have even less money to purchase quailty products so they purchase more products that are made overseas, or in Mexico, which causes even more American Companies to have to relocate there in order to stay in business, so more people get laidoff and the cycle just keeps repeating untill soon there will be no more products "Made In The USA" and more people will be getting into mowing lawns because there isnt any jobs doing anything else, but we can blame it on the President or Congress or the Mexican people or the Chinese or Japanese, or anywhere else we can except where it really belongs.

If you are out of work and wear clothing not made in the USA because it is cheaper, or drive foriegn vehicles, and buy foriegn products just because you think they are cheaper, or purchase any other product based on price alone, then YOU are the problem. Not the poor dealer that is trying to compete againt foriegn competition. Uncle Sam didnt send your job overseas or cause your local parts store to close. You did, your decision to purchase products based on price just because it was a few cents cheaper is what has caused the great sucking sound of jobs leaving the USA. Your the Reason that stores like Wal-Mart can contribute 10% of our trade defict to China. Your decision to purchase cheap is the reason your neighbor cant afford to pay you decent wages for mowing his grass. If you want the good money for your services then support the people that could use your service. I bet you dont commute back and forth to mexico to mow grass so why send your money there. Bring the jobs back to American, buy American product made in American factories and soon their will be more Americans that will hire you to mow their lawns and they will be more willing to pay you a decent wage for doing it.

If you cant get decent wages and you dont buy american Products, then you dont have anybody to blame but yourself.
 
#12 ·
i keep hearing people say low ballers can't do the job , don't show up, do bad work , ect ect ect .
what about the low ballers that do good work ?
or what about the low baller that bids low so they can get 3 or 4 houses right next to each other and still does the same or even a better job then you?
im new to the business, but the company i worked for would low ball every one to get accounts next to each other. they only do residential , so tacking off $5 to get an account next door to one they were at already , made them more money then biding high and hoping. please don't say they do bad work. they don't . they don't get complaints they do the job the best they can and they work hard.
i know low balling sucks , but this is business.
 
#13 ·
muddstopper, you should take some economic classes. these companies can make better products at better prices than the foreigners, but chose not to. dont judge the lowballers badly, they just have more desire to work than you. those lowballers will be the future large LCO if they plan right. the companies that dont want to change because of their personal comfort level cannot decrease for pride. those are the loser and those are the ones that are going to be held back. my point is if there is a demand for lowballers, then you better be ready to meet the supply or be out. all this is personal opinion, but bring them on, i'll outwork them if i have to.
 
#14 ·
I buy many parts online. Not because of cheaper prices. But because I can sit and look up what I need and order it with a click of a button and not waste time driving over to a dealer, waiting in line, dealing with an unknowedgeable parts person, who still almost always just has to order the parts anyway, costing me another trip to the dealership.

He's another example. I had a toro mower that needed a new gear transmission. I knew from experience that they were all basically the same peerless unit. The parts guy could only look up the exact part number and quote the price based on that. No problem solving, no looking to see if another unit matched. No knowledge of the various aspects that go into sizing one. So I got a price of something around $450 since it was an older machine and for some reason this part was higher. On my own, I did some research at catalog companies and realized a similar unit with a different part number was an exact fit. $199.

So, if dealers want to charge higher prices, fine. But they need to actually add value to the process or they become extraneous. I can't tell you how many times I've asked for parts and received the wrong item because of incompetent help. How many of you have asked a question at your dealer and gotten nowhere, then came here to this message board and got the real scoop? If we can learn about our mowers why can't they?

Another example. I have a fixed deck toro 32" mower. It uses the Exmark deck. You can look at them and tell they're the exact deck. I asked for a mulch kit at the toro dealer. Nope, they dont' make one. Can't get one. Etc. etc. I ask around here and yep, the Exmark one fits. I order it from the exmark dealer and it's a perfect fit. If I, who has 2 toro mowers, can figure out this problem, why can't a toro dealer?

Many dealers I've used are frankly poorly run and disorganized. I try to avoid them because it gives me heartburn dealing with people like that. If I need a carb or wheel assembly it's just much easier to pull out a catalog and have it shipped to my door than to go to a dealer and have to walk them through the process to get a part #, pay 20% more, wait a week or so, then make another trip over to pick it up.


It's like any business. Provide a superior service if you want to charge more. Yes, we seem to always want something for nothing. But I'd settle for something for something. I'm not always getting that at dealers. So I use catalogs for some parts.

The current parts system is cumbersome and expensive and outdated. It's designed more to protect a dealer's "turf" than to get parts to customers as quickly and cheaply as possible. A system where a customer can order parts online from the manufacturer if desired, or even from dealers direct via mail, phone, or internet, would improve the situation. There's simply no way it's efficient to order a part, have it shipped to a dealer, then have it shipped to a customer. Or worse, require two visits by the customer in person to get the parts. Other businesses do this much more efficiently. They just need to invest in the technology and training to do this.
 
#15 ·
Buying services and buying merchandise aren't quite the same, so think about how you are comparing them.

If LCO A and LCO B both bid on a lawn, they may both say they do quality work, both use the same equipment, both even have the same insurance and tax accountant. But still the jobs they do can be as different as night and day. So change the comparison: LCO A has pro equipment, liability insurance, is honest with the IRS; but LCO B, none-of-the-above. There are obvious reasons to choose one over the other. Mainly, that there is plenty of evidence that LCO A will give you a good job, and you will be supporting a legitimate businessman.

Buying parts is another matter. Or fuel, or mowers, or pickups, or uniform shirts, or... If you are shopping for Brand Z blades, you will get the same quality no matter which company sells them to you. Why would anyone pay $48 a set, when you could have bought them for $24 somewhere else? Now if the difference is $29 a set at the local dealer, vs. $24 a set online, maybe supporting the local dealer is worth a little extra.
But change the comparison here, aftermarket blades for your Toro--one brand made in Taiwan, the other made in USA. To me it doesn't matter that the Taiwan blades run half the price of the American blades, these are critical components that will be extremely dangerous if they fail, and I still trust American metallurgy more that Taiwanese.

On the other hand... 25 years ago I worked in a job where once or twice a month I needed LARGE wrenches, 1 3/8", 1 1/2", and 1 3/4". I had 2 choices. The Snap-On and Mac salesmen had them. I recall those size wrenches were around $90 or $100 apiece. Or I could get a whole set of 6 sizes, 1 3/8 to 2", made in Taiwan, $40 from a mail order outfit. What would you have done? Those Taiwan wrenches turned out to be really good!
 
#16 ·
Originally posted by jaime
I agree 100% with Husker. That's the difference between the lowballers and us, Taxes & Insurance. But to answer the question about shopping for a lower price again its's all about the product or service your getting, if you can get the same blades at a lower price then I say get them, but if you buy sh-tty blades or any piece of equipment just because it's cheaper,then you are a moron. Also it comes down to loyalty, thi word is a two way street if you have a local guy ( dealer ) who is loyal to you and treats you well, the you should give him the business or at least give him the chance to compete with the lower price.
Let's look at this. I pay $600 in liability insurance and about an extra $300 to insure my truck commercially vs. as a personal vehicle(which wouldn't be covered by them but makes you legally able to drive on the street). That's $900 a year. Licenses? Anywhere from $25 for a simple business license to several hunded for pesticide apps and such. Still, under $1k. Combined, this is less than $1/lawn, so its hardly a huge factor in prices.

Taxes, on the other hand, can be a major factor. 10% to 30% or so federal brackets, 5-7% state maybe, and over 15% self employment...that's significant. When you have employees, then the difference is even more. Workers comp(protects you really, not the customer, in most cases), unemployment, payroll taxes, etc. Not to mention how "paying cash" allows your dishonest competitor to undercut you by attracting workers who prefer to not pay taxes themselves. Why would someone work for $10/hour legally when they can make $8 off the books and keep more of it?

The above is why I despise the underground economy that the current labor system encourages. What if we all worked like this? The government would go bankrupt because nobody paid taxes. I have to chuckle when I see the guys with American flags all over their pickups stopping at the ATM to pay their day laborers and illegal workers cash. How patriotic of them.
 
#18 ·
Wow, lots of interesting points made here. First, some of us out there appearently have some really crappy dealers. If I had to put up with a bunch of unknowledgeble parts guys and week long waits for parts, then heck no I would not mess with him. I would buy elsewhere. I am a very strong believer in buying local but they have got to deserve your biz as well and being unknowledgeble and making you wait for parts is not deserving.
However, I must make a statement on another issue that was raised. Some of us may need some economics classes but some of us also need to use common sense instead of business sense. I feel that I happen to have a little of both. I agree with muddstopper wholeheartedly. There is no way around it. It is a never-ending cycle. We demand cheap merchandise. If company A does not have it we look around till we find it. To compete, company A has to lower prices. Now if this was just a phase, then company A could just weather the storm and go about its business. But this is NOT a phase. It is a nationwide frenzy to buy cheap and save money. And on the surface, this seems to be sound reasoning. But since it is not a phase, company A must cut costs to deliver a cheaper product. This may or may not start with wages or benefits but sooner or later it will get to it. Now the employees of company A, have had there raises slashed, some have been laid off and several have had increased costs for their benefits. All in the name of cutting costs to compete in a market that demands cheap. What do the employees do now? They start having to buy cheaper products across the board because their personal finances just got tighter. Now more companies have to sell cheap in order to compete because more people are demanding a lower priced product. More jobs get slashed, more employees are making less money so their company can compete, more employees are having to buy cheaper in order to make ends meet. Over and over and over. It is truly a never ending cycle.
So when we support Wal Mart and their never ending quest to destroy mom and pop businesses so they can corner the market where-ever they are located, like it or lump it, it all boils down to being contributing factors to all these businesses relocating outside of US borders. And yes, like it or not, we helped put them there because we were willing to buy cheap, even if it led to the demise of our locally owned and operated mom and pop stores.
 
#19 ·
Brucec32, I agree with you on shoping for price. May be if the Fed. Goverment charged sales tax in stead of income tax then there would not be any underground economy.

Muddstopper, Do you think the companys that moved overseas gave there workers a chance to take a pay cut? Do you think the unioins had any impack on that thinking?

If a company can't compete they must cut cost. If my company can't compete then I will cut cost and buy the $24 blades. A friend said the $48 is an expence just write it off. How stupid! Even If I had the $48 and didn't care, it would still be stupid. There are a lot of ways we can cut cost and provide services to compete with lowballers. Lowering the price is not the choice I care to make. If I can not charge a fair price for what I believe to be the best lawn service around then I will sell out. Those of you lowballers reading this post are thinking that would be a good thing. Well baby, I'm here to tell ya it aint goina happen. Because I charge a fair price I have more options, all you got is your price. It is posible for you to make more money in 3 days than you do in a week. You are tripping over dollars to pick up nic. and dimes.
 
#20 ·
lawnagent wrote:

Are many of us responsible for LOWBALLERS in the mower parts and accessory industry?

I'll give you these three reason why I shop around for mower parts. There are more.

1: I needed a carb primer bulb for a customer's B&S engine that I was working on. I walk in the door of the local dealer and go to the parts counter. As I'm waiting I look around and find the bulbs prepackaged and prepricemarked hanging on the wall. The printed (from the factory) price of $1.95 had been scratched through and they had written $4.95 on it in pen instead.

2: I ordered an extra tach-hour meter from my local commercial mower dealer. When the meter arrived I looked at the invoice and the charged price was $59.95 plus $10 for shipping. I looked at the prepackaged meter and again the preprinted price had been marked out only this time I couldn't make it out. I went to the tinytach website and found out the list price for the meter was $42.95.

3: In need of an oil filter for a customer's B&S powered riding tractor I headed to the local auto parts store. The auto parts store wanted $6 for a Fram oil filter. I got back in the car and drove 2 more miles to Pepboys. The same exact filter was $2.

I see stuff like this all of the time. I know what these parts should cost and a lot of dealers out there are ripping people off. If a person doesn't do a little shopping around they are setting themselves up to be taken advantage of by dealers who do overcharge for parts.
 
#23 ·
It all boils down to shopping for the better deal. It is hard when it comes to service because you never know what you are really getting until you try the service out.

But with products/parts you know what you are getting so why would you pay more, it just doesn't make since. I guess you can say the on-line stores and super stores of america are low-ballers, so what.

I wouldn't blame a customer if they chose a cheaper company that provided equal/similar service. What bugs me is when the company offering it isn't legal and that is how they cut prices. I bet all the superstores of america are legal. I shop at J. Thomas and I bet they are legal.

Why would anyone want to pay a higher price?
 
#24 ·
Energy’
“muddstopper, you should take some economic classes. These companies can make better products at better prices than the foreigners, but chose not to. Don’t judge the lowballers badly, they just have more desire to work than you.”

These are some pretty big assuming by you, First You assume that I have never had any business classes, you are wrong, Then you say, these companies can make better products at cheaper prices but they choose not to. Wrong again, the fact is that most American made products are better than the foreign junk. Then you have the impression that I don’t choose to work. You don’t know me nor have we every met. I have worked a steady job with the same company for 27 years. This job involves working in all kinds of weather, rain or shine, freezing temperatures and temperatures as high as 140 degrees. I work regular 10 hr day but most of the time it is 12 to 15 hrs per day. On top of that my average driving distance to work is usually around 1000 miles round trip. I have worked in every state in the south and several up north. Then I come home on the weekend and work for my own company 20 and 30 hrs per weekend. I think I work enough, thank you. And I am not judging anybody or calling anybody a lowballer. Nowhere in my post was the word even used. What I did point out was the fact that there are a lot of people that are out of work and have taken up mowing as a way to pay their bills. The reason that they are out of work is because that they chose to by cheaper foreign made products and the companies that were making the similar products closed their factories and moved overseas. Now if these un-employed people had bought American made products then the American factories would still be making products in the USA. In order for them to make these American products they would have needed laborers to work in the American factories. That would have increased employment in the USA and there wouldn’t be as many Americans out of work and having to mow lawns to make a living. One more point, The United States has a trade deficit with China in excess of 106 billion dollars. Wal-Mart imports 10.6 billion dollars in goods from China each year. A full 10% of the total deficit. Wal-Mart also owns store in China, these stores are full of China made products for the Chinese people to purchase, and Wal-Mart does not import anything to China from the USA to sell in their stores. Go to the Wal-Mart stores in Mexico and see how many American products are sold there, few if any but I bet it is full of Mexican made products for the Mexican people. If you want to purchase foreign made products, go ahead, the next time you want to blame someone for undercutting your prices to make a living, you can look in the mirror and see who is to blame.
 
#25 ·
mbricker

You say buying sevices and merchandise is not the same. In a way they are. Both are driven by the supply and demand. If there is a high demand for your sevices or merchandise then they can command a premuim price, but on the other hand if there are a lot of people performing that service or the merchandise then the price is going to drop as competition to market these goods or sevices increases. You brought up the point about purchaseing tiawan wrenches verses the Snapon or Mac because of price and asked what would I do. My employer purchased a little cheap tiawan tool set for me to use on the job. I had to remove a bolt from a piece of machinery and these where the only tools I had to work with. My boss handed me the cheap tiawan channel lock pliers and I proceeded to mash the $$it out of my fingers with them. I then turned around and threw the pliers as far as I could and told my boss if that was all he had for me to work with then he could do it hisself. The next day I had a set of Snapon pliers, and wrenches and other tools. I refuse to indanger my health just to save a few bucks.

Littleliver1,
you ask if I thought that the companies asked if the employees would take a paycut and If the Unions had any impact on that thinking. Well I am a Union member so heres my position. You think you should recieve a fair price for your services or you will sell out. Do you not think that union members should recieve a fair wage for their services also. Do you also think that I should lower my standard of living just so you can buy cheaper products. Do you also think that if union members would abandon their unions that that you would have as many people wanting you to mow their grass. The answer would be no because they wouldnt be making enough money to pay you. You say if a company cant compete they must control cost. Control cost at who's expense. Controling cost is what they are doing when they move overseas.
Overseas thay have found a large labor pool of people that are willing to work for pennies a day with no health insurance or anyother benefits that the American people enjoy. Are you willing to give up any benefits you have and work for pennies a day.
 
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