Kubota, kioti, JD, and all the others

 

I have a Yanmar LX490 with 49hp yanmar turbo-diesel for my horse farm. I have a 12 inch post hole digger, 6 foot bushog, 6 foot finish mower, front and rear hay spears, box blade, along with a 6 foot bucket. This tractor is perfect for my 45 acres even though the finish mower rarely gets used since I have a Gravely 672 now. Bushogging it burns about 1 gph. Sounds like you may be looking at a subcompact tractor and not a cut.

 

Your flag shows Great Britain, what brands are available to you there?

 

I have a 19 year old Kubota B7800 that is a great machine for my purposes and could serve you well if you could get your hands on one. I was initially skeptical about getting a tractor with a hydrostatic transmission, but have come to appreciate it. However, if you are in the U.K. it appears that the Kubota machines available to you are likely to be limited to much larger ag machines. I saw that Jeremy Clarkson has a very nice, and surprisingly affordable, Lamborghini tractor. Perhaps a bit large for your purposes.

As for implements/attachments --

• Front end loader
• Chain hooks on the FEL (probably the most cost effective addition)
• Toothbar for the FEL (to change the loader into a digger, also very handy for dragging debris)
• If you are limiting yourself to a single mower, pick a good flail
• If the FEL has it as an option, a detachable bucket and pallet forks that can be used with the FEL
• A 12 volt sprayer that you may strap in the FEL or carry on the rear using something like a 3 pt pallet mover
• A box scraper can be handy, depending on what you might be doing
• Consider a detachable backhoe, mine has paid for itself many times over, and has been especially appreciated when livestock need a burial
• Post hole digger if you will be doing any fencing, or if you want to be able to auger lots of holes to plant an orchard or the like.
• If your land is not quite level, fill the rear tires with beet juice or other ballast to increase stability.

 

I think soomone here who had tried a whole bunch of jd compact tractors found the 2038r was the best choice in terms of minimizing turf damage from excessive weight and still having sufficient power to be pretty productive.

 

Still waiting and my guess is I will be a very long time.

We can all recommend something but if he truly is from England, it doesn't matter what we recommend if it isn't available.

Just have a feeling about this guy.

 

I have a John Deere 790 with a FEL, backhoe, 500 lb cyclone spreader, winch, and a mid mount mower. I can mow some rough ground as the mower deck can raise about 8" above ground level. I've been using this compact tractor in this manner for 24 years, still on the original blade spindles.....
The backhoe is really too small for stumping or serious digging but otherwise 30 horse power can accomplish a lot when one considers what early farmers had to work with.
Having used Kubota compact tractors at work I think the controls and construction of a Kubota is superior to an equivalent-sized John Deere.

 

I've been using this compact tractor in this manner for 24 years, still on the original blade spindles.....

How many hours on it?

 

1,800 hours.

 

Well, it ought to last you forever then. You hardly use it at all. Surprised you can justify owning it for no more hours a year than you use it. Not even enough hours a year to need to change the oil.

 

Looks like I was right.

 

I also have a PTO generator I can run the whole shebang with if the power goes out.

Not with a 30hp tractor you can't. 30HP won't run a very big gen set at all. I'm guessing you have either never tried to run it at full capacity, or found out it doesn't make enough power to run a very big PTO generator. General rule of thumb on a PTO gen set is 2hp to 1kw of electricity. So you can maybe, maybe push your tractor to run a 15KW gen set at full capacity, which is about 20 amps. So, no. You can't run "the whole shebang" on it.

I have a PTO gen set. I don't remember the size, but we could run our whole farm on it, including the feed and grain mill. It puts out at least 100 amps at full power. It took a 100hp tractor to run it. And it loaded it pretty good. Sure, I can hook it up to the B3350 Kubota that puts out around 35hp and it will run it...... as long as I don't pull that many amps. Otherwise, it will kill the tractor engine dead. Last time I checked, 100 amp is about the minimum that the power company will feed to a house. Most modern houses are fed 200 amps. Obviously they don't pull all 100 or 200 amps at a time, and if you start appliances up one at a time you can load the gen set up. But you aren't going to run your whole house as if the power isn't off with a 30hp tractor and a gen set pushing 20 amps at full capacity.

 

Not with a 30hp tractor you can't. 30HP won't run a very big gen set at all. I'm guessing you have either never tried to run it at full capacity, or found out it doesn't make enough power to run a very big PTO generator. General rule of thumb on a PTO gen set is 2hp to 1kw of electricity. So you can maybe, maybe push your tractor to run a 15KW gen set at full capacity, which is about 20 amps. So, no. You can't run "the whole shebang" on it.

I have a PTO gen set. I don't remember the size, but we could run our whole farm on it, including the feed and grain mill. It puts out at least 100 amps at full power. It took a 100hp tractor to run it. And it loaded it pretty good. Sure, I can hook it up to the B3350 Kubota that puts out around 35hp and it will run it...... as long as I don't pull that many amps. Otherwise, it will kill the tractor engine dead. Last time I checked, 100 amp is about the minimum that the power company will feed to a house. Most modern houses are fed 200 amps. Obviously they don't pull all 100 or 200 amps at a time, and if you start appliances up one at a time you can load the gen set up. But you aren't going to run your whole house as if the power isn't off with a 30hp tractor and a gen set pushing 20 amps at full capacity.

When discussing amps we need to also have the voltage. A 15kW PTO generator is likely delivering 120A (15000/120V) or 60A at 240V. Which is prob plenty to support his house when the grid is down, especially if high demand loads are powered by propane or nat gas. You might have been dealing with much higher voltages or 3 phase output with your "100A" PTO genset.

 

General rule of thumb on a PTO gen set is 2hp to 1kw of electricity. So you can maybe, maybe push your tractor to run a 15KW gen set at full capacity, which is about 20 amps.

Huh, I did some investigating into this and I thought it was More than that.

I wanted to try to run my shop or house off one and after some checking, I was going to need at minimum 50 PTO HP. More like 60.

My other problem is generally when the power goes out and I need a generator (winter) the tractors are out plowing or blowing.

 

Huh, I did some investigating into this and I thought it was More than that.

I wanted to try to run my shop or house off one and after some checking, I was going to need at minimum 50 PTO HP. More like 60.

My other problem is generally when the power goes out and I need a generator (winter) the tractors are out plowing or blowing.

Prob better off with a skid mount diesel generator with decent tank in the base and auto transfer switch if you get frequent outages. The cheaper air cooled gas units are usually pretty crapped out after a couple hundred hours, versus water cooled diesel good for thousands of hours.

 

Huh, I did some investigating into this and I thought it was More than that.

I honestly think it is. I needed a number so I googled it and that was a quick answer. That big gen set I have I think is a 25KVA. I'm telling you, running our feed mill it made a 100hp tractor smoke like it was pulling a 6 bottom plow.

 

I can't remember exactly what size genny I was looking at because it's been a year or so and I quit after doing some research.

Guessing at least 10, probably 12-15.

I have a Deere 4720 that is a backup (supposed to be) that wouldn't even run it. That's 37 rated.

 

You have to remember that PTO generators are different from direct drive.

The tractor engine speed slows to 540 RPM at the PTO at rated engine speed. Then you hook up the gen set and have to spool it up to 3600. Big gear step up, and you lose a ton of power that way. You can run a pretty big gen set in direct drive with a much smaller engine than you can via a tractor PTO gen set.

 

You can get a 125kW direct drive gen set that likely has maybe a 100 hp motor on it. Where as it takes 100 HP tractor to run a 25kW PTO generator.

 

Just as a note, on a PTO driven gen set, you have to really watch your hertz. It's easy to get off a bit on it. If anyone does run a PTO gen set, look at one with a hertz meter on it, or add one to it. Otherwise, if you aren't careful you may only be at 50 hertz, or 55, or even 65. The engine and gen set aren't tied together like on a direct drive unit where the output of the gen set is directly tied to the throttle on the engine. Plus, direct drive gen sets have a substantially more sensitive governor than a tractor engine does. It can sense very slight changes in load and adjust RPM to match maintain proper hertz and output.

 

It's a Winpower 15,000 generator - approximately 60 amps 120 30 amps 240 volts. I heat water with a kerosene instantaneous water heater - maybe 1 amp. Submersible water pump 6 amps (240 VAC) Two deep freezes, one refrigerator. We can run a couple of stove top burners or the oven, or the electric clothes dryer. Not everything at once, but we're comfortable. I can monitor voltage and frequency with a remote meter that plugs into any powered outlet but it's always balls on 60 hz. The tractor PTO is governed so any load applied is quickly matched with an increased engine speed. When I said it runs the "whole shebang" I meant all lights, water, water heater, freezers, refrigerator, computer, TV, stereo with careful measured use of the electric ranger and clothes dryer.
I also bought a yard sale Surge 100 Amp PTO generator built in the 1950's that the 30 HP John Deere will run identically the same load described above perfectly - but will not of course produce more than 32 amps 240 volts due to the horsepower of the tractor. I connect the generator to the home via a clothes dryer outlet after I shut down the main breaker so the lines are not energized. A common myth is that a homeowner's generator will energize the power lines in the neighborhood. While 240 V from a generator applied to a pole transformer will boost the primary line of the pole transformer to 7,200 volts - it will not run the neighborhood but instead will instantly overload the homeowner generator in milliseconds. and either trip the generator breaker or burn something out.

 

The tractor PTO is governed so any load applied is quickly matched with an increased engine speed.

But not that accurately. An actual gen set has a much more sensitive governor I assure you.

A common myth is that a homeowner's generator will energize the power lines in the neighborhood. While 240 V from a generator applied to a pole transformer will boost the primary line of the pole transformer to 7,200 volts - it will not run the neighborhood but instead will instantly overload the homeowner generator in milliseconds. and either trip the generator breaker or burn something out.

It is also illegal to run if the system is still tied to the grid. You can get it major trouble if you are running a gen set without a hard disconnect switch. A breaker is NOT a hard disconnect. DPDT switch is required, or pull the meter, or pull the main lines out of the box.

 

But not that accurately. An actual gen set has a much more sensitive governor I assure you.




It is also illegal to run if the system is still tied to the grid. You can get it major trouble if you are running a gen set without a hard disconnect switch. A breaker is NOT a hard disconnect. DPDT switch is required, or pull the meter, or pull the main lines out of the box.

An interlock kit preventing the main breaker and generator breaker from both being on at the same time is sufficient to pass electrical inspection for a generator installation:

 

Hope this helps.....

It doesn't help me any. It is against the law to back feed into the power grid. A breaker cannot guarantee complete disconnect from the main line. If even some voltage escapes, that transformer is going to step it up beyond what the lineman can handle if he comes into contact with it. Like I said, in my state, you can't use the main breaker as a disconnect from the line. It is required to be a DPDT switch. Laws in your state may vary. Your local electric cooperative can tell you. I strongly suggest you check with them to see if using the main as the disconnect is allowed. If it isn't and you get caught, it's on you.

We had a big storm years ago and power was out for days in the dead of winter. Had to help dad get a gen set hooked up and going and he was going to use the main as a disconnect. He had a 200 amp main at the pole and I told him to pull the wires off the bottom of the main breaker to disconnect it. The power guys noticed his pole light was on and came by to check out his set up. They thanked him. They said if he hadn't pulled the wires out, they were supposed to pull his meter and not restore service again until a DPDT switch was installed. They also told us that in the future we could just break their tag and pull the meter off the pole instead of pulling wires. Showed us how to pull the meter. (They just pull off.) They said they had absolutely no issue coming out to put the meter back in after power was restored if it protected their guys. It is what it is. I don't make the rules man. I already knew all of this because I had dealt with it before when I had my shop and the power was out. I was running a gen set there and I pulled my main wires out knowing the law. They did in fact come by to check to see that I had a hard disconnect, which I did.

 

There's no such law in the state in which I reside. I'm trying to explain the impossibility of a homeowner's generator energizing a power line connected to a utility. How about some actual experience? I managed a facility that had several miles of buried 7,200 volt primary line feeding 6 transformers at various locations. The first mile of buried cable needed to be replaced during our busy season when we were fully occupied. I rented a 50kVA generator and fed into the first transformer's secondary windings. The 240 volts stepped up to 7,200 volts and fed the remaining transformers and their attached loads. It was difficult knowing exactly how to do this - even in the late 1990's. The first attempt I had the generator ground bonded to the system ground - copper wire about 1/2" in diameter. The ground wire instantly vaporized. Second attempt used ground rods instead of direct bonding and the 50kVA generator successfully powered the rest of the system... barely. Although voltage was 120/240 at the remote transformers we had to run loads like 5hp pumps individually. The utility company was onboard and jumpered out the lines they were working on. Point is I intentionally backfed into the grid and saw that... #1 a bonded ground to the generator would cause an instant loss of neutral and #2 even under controlled conditions back feeding into a primary power line even with a generator much larger than any homeowner would have was marginal. Add in other transformers with their loads (neighboring water heaters, lights, ranges and dryers) and the chances of energizing a power line to the point of endangering others down the line are like winning Powerball 4 times in a row.

 

There's no such law in the state in which I reside. I'm trying to explain the impossibility of a homeowner's generator energizing a power line connected to a utility.

Well then I guess my state and power company are just playing it safe.

I don't know what the possibility is, I'm not a lineman. I do understand how a transformer works, and fully understand voltage leaking by a breaker. If you've ever seen the inside, there isn't much of an air gap. It's actually pretty easy for some current to jump the gap the contacts to just slightly touch. While at the back side of that breaker it may be minimal, at the transformer, it can step up quite a bit.

There are also rules/regs/laws now regarding grounding and gen sets. I'm not up to speed on them all.


As far as an example goes, here's one. I'm on the end of the line at my house. If there is a break between me and the last house and I back fed into the system, there will be no load to draw on as no one else would be connected. It's unlikely that the voltage would be high enough to blow the fuse at my pole, even if the line is on the ground. Will it pop the fuse on my gen set? Likely so.... if the end of that line is touching the ground. But if it isn't and I back feed, now that would be dead line is hot. Very hot. If the lineman assumes that line is dead, as it should be and touches it...... well, there's good reason for those rules now isn't there? It all depends how far away that next load is. Out here it may be miles.

 

Well then I guess my state and power company are just playing it safe.

I don't know what the possibility is, I'm not a lineman. I do understand how a transformer works, and fully understand voltage leaking by a breaker. If you've ever seen the inside, there isn't much of an air gap. It's actually pretty easy for some current to jump the gap the contacts to just slightly touch. While at the back side of that breaker it may be minimal, at the transformer, it can step up quite a bit.

There are also rules/regs/laws now regarding grounding and gen sets. I'm not up to speed on them all.


As far as an example goes, here's one. I'm on the end of the line at my house. If there is a break between me and the last house and I back fed into the system, there will be no load to draw on as no one else would be connected. It's unlikely that the voltage would be high enough to blow the fuse at my pole, even if the line is on the ground. Will it pop the fuse on my gen set? Likely so.... if the end of that line is touching the ground. But if it isn't and I back feed, now that would be dead line is hot. Very hot. If the lineman assumes that line is dead, as it should be and touches it...... well, there's good reason for those rules now isn't there? It all depends how far away that next load is. Out here it may be miles.

I've done quite a lot of repairs on water pumps and industrial saws and wood working equipment. I took a night course and studied the National Electrical Code with the intention of getting a license. The NEC is huge and the course was way too complex to continue in - I dropped out. But I did learn the basics. Circuit breakers don't leak. When I serviced single or 3 phase equipment shutting off the circuit breaker and tagging the breaker was sufficient and at that time acceptable worksite practice - maybe that's changed. Circuit breakers are normally fail safe; if the breaker fails it always fails in an open circuit - at least that's been my experience. If circuit breakers failed in a closed circuit state there would be fires, injuries and lawsuits.
Your scenario of the end of the line may work in freakishly rare conditions although I suspect the homeowner generator ground/neutral directly bonded to the grid would instantly fail as the 1/2" diameter copper wire did when I attempted the same. It was an incredible thing to see - the 1/2" copper cable vaporized. That convinced me that in order to back feed through a pole transformer the generator could not be directly grounded to the grid. A generator run without a neutral may run 240 volt appliances but it will not light a bulb or provide 120 volts in the home. Right there is another level of protection - the homeowner can't back feed into the grid with the neutral attached and he can't power his home without the neutral attached.
Long story short is without the transfer switch a homeowner with a generator would need to have at least 3 physically impossible / extraordinarily unlikely conditions to occur; 1) a main circuit breaker that when snapped off remains closed 2) the generator not grounded by the neutral to the grid and 3) be located at the end of the line with the power company failure between the homeowner and the next line transformer (primary line broken and down).
Homeowners should have a licensed electrician install a standby generator with a transfer switch. People unfamiliar with electricity risk injury or death, ruined generators, appliances or burned wiring. Standby generators are very popular now. It's a PITA to hook up the PTO generator and make the wire connections only to have the power restored soon afterwards. I've take the time here to explain that I'm not endangering linemen or breaking laws

 

Please provide a link that shows that a UL listed manual interlock is not allowed in Illinois.

That’s going to be tough.
Illinois doesn’t have a statewide electrical code. It has some various laws, but code is determined by the power generation companies and county and local governments or elected bodies. The rules/codes vary across the state. Best I can do is link a PDF file of codes by AMEREN, the states largest electric provider. In it, it states their regulations for a standby and portable generators.

It says:

1200.05 REQUIREMENTS FOR OPEN TRANSITION
1. Any of the following methods can be used:
a) Integral transfer switch with mechanical interlocking provisions
b) Kirk key interlocked solid blade switches or circuit breakers
c) Electrically interlocked circuit breakers with backup protection via hard-wired breaker auxiliary contacts
2. Automatic transfer schemes shall include the following:
a) Voltage-sensing capability to detect the loss and recovery of the Ameren source.
b) Open transition manual “bypass” (i.e., auto disable) is highly recommended, though not required.
1200.06 REQUIREMENTS FOR CLOSED (PARALLEL) TRANSITION
1. Any of the following methods can be used:
a) Integral automatic transfer switch set
b) Two or more solid blade disconnects or circuit breakers
2. Transfer times of less than 100 milliseconds in duration.
3. Synchronizing capability to safely tie the sources together.
4. Transfer failure scheme for opening one of the sources when closed transition exceeds a maximum two (2.0) second time delay.
5. Undervoltage protection to prevent a closed transition transfer when the Ameren source is not present.
6. Open transition manual “bypass” (i.e., auto disable) is highly recommended, though not required.

Even if they would allow the metal plate interlock, there would have to be a second breaker for it to meet their code. I have never once seen an electrician or homeowner install one. Back up and portable generator set ups are extremely common here. I don’t understand why you’re being so legalistic about this. It’s a safety thing. Regardless of how safe Mr. Greenie thinks his set up is, he needs to see if it is legal or up to codes.

AMEREN PDF

 

1200.05 REQUIREMENTS FOR OPEN TRANSITION
1. Any of the following methods can be used:
a) Integral transfer switch with mechanical interlocking provisions
...

Ok so they do accept a mechanical interlock switch. No need to pull the meter or anything like that.

 

Just telling you what I was twice told by the power company guys.

I don’t see how the interlock would be acceptable. It clearly states 2 or more blade or circuit breakers. With the interlock only one breaker is used. There would have to be a second breaker at the meter, which isn’t always the case.

 

Ameren is likely one of the most safety minded utilities in the world. If there's a 1 in a trillion chance of anything happening, Ameren is on it! Not really a bad thing, but I've been told from their Director of Safety (a family friend) that they are uber anal about safety.

 

Nice of the OP to respond to questions and comments.

 

Post #8.......

 

It's a Winpower 15,000 generator - approximately 60 amps 120 30 amps 240 volts. I heat water with a kerosene instantaneous water heater - maybe 1 amp. Submersible water pump 6 amps (240 VAC) Two deep freezes, one refrigerator. We can run a couple of stove top burners or the oven, or the electric clothes dryer. Not everything at once, but we're comfortable. I can monitor voltage and frequency with a remote meter that plugs into any powered outlet but it's always balls on 60 hz. The tractor PTO is governed so any load applied is quickly matched with an increased engine speed. When I said it runs the "whole shebang" I meant all lights, water, water heater, freezers, refrigerator, computer, TV, stereo with careful measured use of the electric ranger and clothes dryer.
I also bought a yard sale Surge 100 Amp PTO generator built in the 1950's that the 30 HP John Deere will run identically the same load described above perfectly - but will not of course produce more than 32 amps 240 volts due to the horsepower of the tractor. I connect the generator to the home via a clothes dryer outlet after I shut down the main breaker so the lines are not energized. A common myth is that a homeowner's generator will energize the power lines in the neighborhood. While 240 V from a generator applied to a pole transformer will boost the primary line of the pole transformer to 7,200 volts - it will not run the neighborhood but instead will instantly overload the homeowner generator in milliseconds. and either trip the generator breaker or burn something out.

How do you connect the generator to the clothes dryer outlet? Don't both of these have female connections?

 

That's why they call them suicide cords. Male on both ends.