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Bummed Out

Discussion in 'Trucks and Trailers' started by HOMER, Nov 23, 2002.

  1. Gravel Rat

    Gravel Rat LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 9,544

    Any diesel truck with a automatic transmission behind it isn't gonna last because they can't stand up to the viberation a diesel creates. The Allison tranny isn't any better than the ones used in Ford or Dodge because they can't build a transmission large enough and still fit in a P/U frame. I would never buy a truck with a auto tranny every truck I have owned is a manual alot less troubles and more control of the speed and gearing.

    As for what Randy says about Cummins in other applications that doesn't mean a rats *** for Dodge sales Dodge can't build good trucks and with the Chrysler corporation being owned by Dialmer its nothing but bad news.

    Dodges are built like Freightliners so they can be sold cheaper than the competition most people buy them just because they can be had for alot less than a Ford or Chev. You look at the resale value of a Dodge its just like a Freightliner which is far less than the competion also you own one you own it for life because nobody else will buy it.

    The Dailmer corporation is run by a bunch of idiots that play with blocks on the floor would never buy one of their products. The stupid idiots have ruined Western Star trucks they took the plant away from the province I live in and my uncle lost his job.

    The reason why you see the ISB used in different types of equipment and trucks is they are a independant engine manufacturer they don't care who they sell their engines too.

    International/Navistar builds their own engines for their trucks only they won't sell their engines for use in MD Fords like the 650 and 750. Ford worked with International/Navistar on the 6.9-7.3 and the PSD to make these engines work in Ford light trucks and have been since 83 when the 6.9 came out.

    Its just like Mack, Mack builds their own engines for use in their trucks you don't see a Mack engine powering any other manufacturers trucks. Mack is the only manufacturer that builds all their own parts Engine Transmission Axles and Suspension.

    As for the ISB being a good engine for MDT applications its not the 466E is a Far superior engine its even better than the 3126 Cat the 530E is better than the ISC 8.3 Cummins. You see more International trucks powered by 466 engines working everyday almost flawlessly. Any guy I talk to that has a ISB in a MDT says its a POS it can barely get out of its own way and they would never own one again. One guy he delivers pet food he got rid of his ISB powered Freightliner and bought a 466E powered International and he's happier than a pig in ****.
  2. lee b

    lee b LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 6,074

    Gravel Rat has hit the nail on the head, there is not a better engine in its power class than a 466 International. That's the reason in medium duty trucks International rules, a good truck and the best engine ever put in a truck. We run International trucks spreading fertilizer, overloaded, tached out, bogging knee-deep all-day long, no problems.
  3. GreginAlaska

    GreginAlaska Banned
    Messages: 829

    I thought you could get a powerstroke in the 650 and 750? That's Navistar, right?
  4. Gravel Rat

    Gravel Rat LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 9,544

    Yes you can but its not the same as a 444E which is International version of the PSD but its been replaced with the 6.0 PSD or the 363. I wouldn't want a PSD in a 650 just too small just like the Cummins its all right for real lightly spec'ed 650 like a schoolbus that lives in flat areas.
  5. Randy J

    Randy J LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,124

    The Powerstroke, 444E, has been standard equipment in a 550/650, with the Cummins as optional equipment.
    Pretty good reasoning for the lack of use of the 444E outside of Ford trucks, too bad it's a farce! The Cummins is an industrial engine, and is used in industrial applications - successfully. The Navistar 444E is not! Don't get me wrong, the 444E is a good engine for a pickup truck. The Cummins just has a much larger application, and is a much heavier duty engine. Not sure 'bout the 6.0, but the 7.3 doesn't have as many main bearings as the Cummins, not to mention the crankshaft is about 1/2 as thick. May be overkill, but the Cummins is still heavier duty than the Powerstroke (at least the 7.3 - I'd be interested to see inside the 6.0). And the straight 6 is just naturally better at torque - which is what matters to a diesel, than a V8. Even in gasoline engines that's true. The 466E is a straight 6, and is a very good motor.

    As for the rest of your statement Gravel Rat, well, that just pretty much speaks for itself...

    Either way Homer, if you're going truck shopping, you have 3 good trucks to choose from. And contrary to what Gravel Rat says, although it's not perfect, the Allison in the GM is better than the Ford or Dodge transmissions. It just has some shift characteristics that would drive a lot of people nuts. I will say however that Dodge is going to be selling the Cummins HO, with an upgraded auto tranny starting in about 1 month. If you're looking for a manual, I'd say the trucks are even in the transmission department. As for the rest of the truck, I think it's personal preference. Which one are you more comfortable in? As I said before, take the engines out of the equation, and all three build good trucks, with some bad ones here and there. Although I'm not a fan of GM's independent front suspension.

    Now that we've turned this into a major "mine is better than yours" thread, I'm sure you're fully prepared to go shopping;) !

  6. Gravel Rat

    Gravel Rat LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 9,544

    Industrial engine that makes me laugh the ISB is a small engine its a toy sure its used in excavators etc but its no different than Isuzus Johndeere Mitsubushi used in other equipement.

    Theres nothing wrong with V-8 designed engines the 444 is designed for truck purposes the ISB was never designed for truck use when it first appeared. It took Dodge to work with Cummins to make the engine work in light truck applications otherwise the engine was strictly a stationary and heavy equipment engine rated at 100-190hp. International builds engines and trucks they design them to work well together they have been buiding engines just aslong as Cummins. Most farmers that supply your food have relied on International engines to run tractors to trucks to grow grain etc.

    I don't know what you do for a living Randy but its sure damn funny how you beleive the Cummins is the best engine out there and think V-8 diesel engine are junk. Anyhow theres no point in arguing with you drive a Dodge and that says something about you :rolleyes:

    I have worked around heavy equipment all my life and Cummins engines are no better than any other brand out there right now a buddy of mine is having real problems with his ISC its a POS.
  7. Brickman

    Brickman LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,249

    Mr. Gravel most of the time I agree with what you say. How ever to bash the Cummins as much as you do makes me :dizzy: . The PS is not the junk that a lot of people say, and neither is the Cummins.

    Your view of the cummins makes me :laugh: and I have never heard it from any where else. But I guess that is what makes America/Canada great is that we can all have our own opinions and no body else has to agree with us.

    I agree with you that there will be lemons no matter what brand you look at. At the same time there is no doubt that Cummins is a quality engine builder.

    To each his own :drinkup: That is why we have multiple choices for most any thing we want now days.
  8. Randy J

    Randy J LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,124

    Brickman, as I mentioned in another thread, I think you are very reasonable. You just have a strong bias for Ford, which is ok. The same can be said of Swamprat. It's just Gravel Rat that keeps making himself look, how shall I say kindly..., unintelligent, with his constant bashing of Cummins. If he would bother to take off his rose colored Ford glasses long enough to read, he would notice that I said nothing bad about the Powerstroke and even that it is a good engine, with many examples out on the road. However, the Cummins is used in many different applications, in horsepower ratings up to 335, not the 195 that he quoted.
    They're all good engines. I just believe the Cummins is built a little more heavy duty, not that it's necessary in a pickup application.
    International is a great medium duty truck, and the DT466 is a great engine also.
    On a side note, Brickman, I'm sure you'll be happy to know that I went to look at a '96 Dodge/Cummins stakebed today, with the idea of selling the Ford and buying the Dodge instead. However after looking at the Dodge, I'm keeping this Ford. I bet you're just rolling on that one!:cool:

  9. I have nothin but praise for the cummings in my pickup. It will pull a mountain and mine at the moment is still stock.You noticed though i said its stock at the moment, it wont be stock to much longer though:D
  10. Gravel Rat

    Gravel Rat LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 9,544

    The 335 rating is the marine version that doesn't mean nothing you wouldn't see a Cummins last that long with that high of a rating in marine use.

    Anyhow this is supposed tobe a discussion for P/U trucks if you guys south of the boarder didn't have the stupid rule you need a CDL for trucks heavier than 26,000lbs you would realize that the ISB is too small for heavy trucks. The ISC is no better when used in a truck with a 35,000lb gvw if manufacturers offer a better engine like the M-11.

    I don't know why Ford guys like Brickman want a Cummins in their truck for a PSD can pull the same amount of weight you know P/U trucks are not designed for pulling heavy trailers.

    If you come to B.C. Canada you would be very worried about pulling a 10,000lb plus trailer like in Texas where Randy is from pulling heavy trailers is a piece of cake because its flatter than a table.

    It doesn't matter how much power you got under the hood of your P/U truck you aint gonna stop that load with those small brakes. For trailers over 10,000lbs I would even consider pulling it with a 650 or larger truck you want the braking power you ever loose the trailer brakes and you gotta try stop the load with the trucks brakes forget it. If you ever got in a accident here pulling a heavy trailer with a P/U truck the EMTs would have to take the seat out of the truck to get you out because half of it would be sucked up your a***.

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