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C3 V.s. C-4

Discussion in 'Pesticide & Herbicide Application' started by George777, Feb 11, 2003.

  1. George777

    George777 LawnSite Senior Member
    from Alabama
    Messages: 305

    What type is a better turf? I have often wondered about what was the difference and finally tonight it made a little sense.

    C-3 pathway:
    1. 3 ATP
    2. Lower photosynthetic rate
    3. Photo-respiration
    4. Can not photosynthesize under hi temps
    5. occurs only in mesophyll cells

    C-4 Pathway:
    1. 5 ATP
    2. Higher photosynthetic rate
    3. NO photo-respiration
    4. CAN
    5. occurs in mesophyll & bundle sheath cells

    I got my mind blown away about the process of Photosynthesis and how it works. If any one would like to go through it I think it what blow some peoples mind what is happing in a blink.
  2. SWD

    SWD LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 988

    What makes a better turf is a loaded question. Organic matter, even simple celled organisms like turfgrass are not grown in a vacuum.
    Quite simply, what is best is what works for that particular area.
  3. lars

    lars LawnSite Member
    Messages: 117

    To bring things back to the grass, the subfamily Festucoideae, or cool season grasses use the C3 photosynthesis. The equates to the flush of growth in the spring and fall. In the summer, photorespiration, or oxygen substituting for CO2 in high heat causes the decline in gowth and high use of water.

    The subfamily Eragrostoideae and Panicoideae, or warm season grasses use C4 photosynthesis. C4 is very efficent under high temp, making the grass grow like mad under the right conditions. But if you took these grasses too far north, the actual time of green grass would be too short or the grass would not survive at all.
  4. SWD

    SWD LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 988

    lars, the question never left grass (by which is mean't turf).
    What makes a better turf is a highly subjective question.
    Many southern golf courses maintain C3 turf and many northern courses also use C4 turf.
    So again, what makes the best turf is how it is used and where.
  5. George777

    George777 LawnSite Senior Member
    from Alabama
    Messages: 305

  6. lars

    lars LawnSite Member
    Messages: 117

    Yes, golf courses in the south use cool season grasses, but for overseeding greens. Perennial rye is used, but as the weather warms up, bermuda usually chokes it out. Creeping bent is used on greens, as it has a lot of desirable traits and is the best performer in heat of cool season grasses. Tall fescue is found south due to its heat tolerance as well. Zoysia is commonly used in the transition areas of Virginia but it is rare in any northern golf course. The texture is just not as nice compared to rye, blue, etc.
  7. SWD

    SWD LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 988

    lars, perhaps you can do better than a gross generalization about the golf courses.
    Most quality driven golf courses will have different varieties of bentgrass as a permanent green, I know of not one that uses bentgrass as an overseed for bermudagrass.
    Should a course that has a bermudagrass green and wishes to overseed, it is definately not with perrenial ryegrass.
    Basil tillage turf is not condusive towards a putting green surface.
    Typically, depending upon maintenance budgets and also skill of the superintendent, overseeding greens is down with poa trivialis.
    And no, perrenial ryegrass is not 'choked out' by the bermudagrass coming out of dormancy. Perrenial ryegrass has certain advantages towards overseeding use, one of them being the endophytes which allow the perrenial ryegrass to tolerate higher heat before dying out. The endophytes also help in certain disease cycles as well.
  8. lars

    lars LawnSite Member
    Messages: 117

    First off I implied that bent is used year-round. On to the other facts.

    "Winter overseeding of bermuda greens is practiced in mild winter areas where there is winter play. The seed mixture selected should provide a minimum transition period while the bermuda grass is entering dormancy in the autumn and during spring greenup. The overseeding mixture may include 2 to 4 species from among the following cool-season turfgrasses: perennial ryegrass, rough bluegrass, creeping bentgrass, and/or red fescue. Improved cultivars of perennial ryegrass and rough bluegrass are the most widely used. A seed mixture of 80% perennial ryegrass and 20% rough bluegrass by weight has been a good performer due to the better wear tolerance, reduced ball marks, and higher ball roll speed of the perennial ryegrass, which is combined with the masking of scattered annual bluegrass plants by the rough bluegrass."

    "A successful winter overseeding program culminates with proper spring transition. This means that a uniform putting surface maintained by gradual decline and loss of the winter overseeded grasses coordinated with spring greenup and shoot growth initiation of the bermudagrass."

    Taken from "Turf Management for Golf Courses" by James Beard, former professer Michigan State (1961-1975) and Texas A&M (1975-1992).
  9. SWD

    SWD LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 988

    lars, I am not mistaken.
    Should you have the time, call me and I will edify my comments.
    Steve at 830-693-0598 or cellular 830-305-0339.
    BTW, ask your turfgrass instructor, when was the last time he built a 3 million $ golf course or worked off shore,or for that matter, consultated at one?
    Food for your thought - and that is good because lively conversation keeps all involved.

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