Cat 259B3...

Discussion in 'Heavy Equipment & Pavement' started by Ozz, Feb 19, 2011.

  1. stuvecorp

    stuvecorp LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 5,245

    Isn't the current 440S3 around 288 foot pounds for torque? The sad part is the S3 chassis will no longer be on the market. The 440S3 with a few tweaks is still one of the best machines out there in the midsize market. How awesome would it be to have the 440S3 chassis with a S3 vertical lift option(like a 435/445/465)? The cab may not be as good as the Cat but I feel it had a good balance of functionality and durability. I feel some of the other brands seem chintzy or plasticy.

    I am not looking forward to the time the skids run DEF or go to the more restrictive Tier levels and it will cost us way more just to own the machine unfortunately.

    As for Cat using the CNH motor, here is a radical thought - what would stop Cat and Fiat(CNH owner) from rebadging the Alpha series as a Cat? We may have a cow but look at it from the suits perspective, it would lower the cost with extra unit/component volumes and spread that R&D money out?
  2. Ozz

    Ozz LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 887

    I agree that he 440S3 is the best right now.

    My track loaders (don't bash 'em.:laugh:) and 315 are getting me along pretty well right now, but the scary thought is if and when I need a skid steer to be competitive, and when I have to replace aging gear. (My 941B is over 30 years old right now, and the 555 is 12.) I'm gonna get screwed when I have to buy a TIER IV track loader- If they exist then, as excavators may make them useless soon. Ther won't be a thing called rear visibility if Cat and Deere want to keep the engine compartments narrow. And we've all seen Deere, Volvo and Cat's TIER IV excavators. Some aren't so bad, some (Cat) are terrible. I can't afford TIER III gear right now, because I'm running thin. I don't like what's going on it SSL/CTLs right now.

    Cat and Fiat could in theory rebadge the engine, but CNH would have a freaking cow, and probably require a liscense of some sort or a royalty fee.
  3. stuvecorp

    stuvecorp LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 5,245

    I know I always give you a hard time but use what works for you. I do like the 943/953 loaders and honestly wouldn't mind one someday. What worries me is the older iron getting legislated out. I think the best thing is to get as new of stuff as possible so you at least have a little longer time to figure stuff out but it's really hard to spend money that isn't there right now.

    As for rebadging, Fiat is the one that has all the say. They made NH and Case basically put out the same skid/CTL? It may seem far fetched but it really wouldn't surprise me if something like this happened...
  4. Digdeep

    Digdeep LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,840

    CAT will be using the same 3.2L engine. Perkins has already signed an agreement and CAT owns Perkins.
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  5. ksss

    ksss LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 7,170

    Bobcat and CNH have released machines that will take them into the next Tier level (hence the large asss these machines have). CAT and Deere will need to do the same, certainly CAT as they will apparently use the same technology as CNH. Maybe Deere has something else in mind.

    At first thought it seems crazy that CAT and CNH would market the same machine. But when I start thinking about it, it gets less crazy. SSL/CTL sales numbers are fractions of what they were 4 years ago and lets be honest, they are not coming back like they were. CAT has Wacker building their smaller mini excavators. It could happen, although I still doubt it, but CAT announced several years ago before things west way South, that they were not making money in the compact market.

    I still don't get Terex building their own SSL. Don't see that working out for them but maybe since they build ASV's they have most of what they need to build SSLs anyway and so their costs are not as high. I don't see them getting anywhere with it. Too little of a dealer base, with ASV if you want one there is only one place to get one and thats from ASV (the CAT MTL is not the same), obviously not the case with a SSL. I would guess 95% of America is within 50 miles of some kind of a skid steer/ CTL dealer. I could prove to be wrong on this but I don't think so.

    The Alpha machine is no doubt more of a finesse machine compared to the previous machines. The engineers were blunt, the XT and 400 series machines were designed when steel was cheap. That is not true and likely never will be again. They cant make a machine like that anymore and sell it and still make money. I am kinda being pushed on this TR machine. If I want it I will likely have to sign for it and they will get it built right away. Looks like it will be a 3rd or 4th quarter build as it is. They are way stacked on orders. They mentioned this over and over to get your orders in early, I thought is was BS to generate more orders but It appears it was actually straight up.

    The 440, in my much distorted view, in either in orginal or 440S3 dress is one of the best skid steers brought to market. Although it will never rise to the cult level of the 1845C, it is without a doubt, in my mind, worthy of it.
  6. stuvecorp

    stuvecorp LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 5,245

    I agree on the Terex skids but think they want part of the wheeled market.

    Something I've heard from the NH side is the 3.2 has been very good on power and fuel so time will tell. Isn't the 3.2 in the 420S3 and 430S3?

    I will continue the lovefest for the XT/440 chassis, especially the S3's.
  7. dozerman21

    dozerman21 LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,171

    I also think the SSL for ASV was a bad idea. ASV is like Takeuchi here... a large market with no dealer support.

    On the torque of the new engines, my Deere CT332 had around 250lbs. and it was plenty. I'm all about the more power, the better, but that amount of torque was better than good. I know it translates different to each machine, but I would think 250lbs + in a 440 size machine would be very good.
  8. ksss

    ksss LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 7,170

    Actually I told myself the same thing. Nobody complains about Deere being short of power and their largest machines have the same amount of torque. Just when you have 288 foot pounds, going down is not easy to wrap your head around. The 430 does have the 3.2

    I think its a good engine, I just think the 4.5 was a great engine and a little more refinement it would have been perfect.
  9. Digdeep

    Digdeep LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,840

    I actually think it makes sense for Terex to introduce a SSL. It rounds out their compact range- CTL, mini, and now SSL along with their wheel loaders, telehandlers, backhoes, dumpers, rollers, light towers, etc.

    Also, from what I can tell, the CTL and SSL share many of the same components- engines, pumps, controls, etc. In my eyes, if I were a potential customer it shows that Terex is making a commitment to the compact industry- new SSL and backhoe. It goes with their efforts to strengthen their dealer network. Time will tell if it was smart.
    Posted via Mobile Device

    A.EXCAVATING LawnSite Member
    Messages: 23

    If you guys like torque cats new 299c is a very nice machine little bit on pricey side but like ozz said you cant beat a old 941b or a 939 both GREAT little machine small enough to get around and still enough power to move ALOT of dirt

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