clover control

Discussion in 'Pesticide & Herbicide Application' started by ant, Apr 28, 2012.

  1. propositionjoe

    propositionjoe LawnSite Member
    Messages: 14

    absolutely best there is for clover, and pretty much any other weed
  2. Skipster

    Skipster LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,076

    I find it hard to use any phenoxy herbicide (especially mecoprop or MCPA) this year and stay within the law. Products with MCPP (mecoprop) and MCPA state on the label that they can't be sprayed in wind speeds of 10 mph or more. 10 mph is NOT a lot of wind and happens almost every day in most of my markets!

    Also, anything with 2,4-D or dicamba says it can't be sprayed if sensitive areas (bodies of water, habitats for non-target species, or non-target crops) are within 250 ft downwind. My state regulators tell me that this means if there's a slight west wind of 2 mph, I can't spray anything with 2,4-D or dicamba (escalade, trimec, three-way, etc) if any of the neighbors within 250 ft to the east (wind blowing west to east) of my spray area have any plants sensitive to those chems! I can't spray three-way in ANY wind if there are hardwood trees or landscape plants 250 ft downwind!

    Is anyone else dealing with this?

    How do your state ag depts check you on this? For me, they'll follow me on my route and measure wind speed and direction while I'm spraying.

    With these new restrictions, I'm finding it harder and harder to use most standard chems. Are any of you seeing the same thing?
  3. RigglePLC

    RigglePLC LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 13,674

    This is nuts! I just wrote big indignant note, and lost it. Starting again.
    It appears you are correct. There are new restrictions for almost all herbicides containing 2,4-D or MCpa and phenoxy herbicides. Most of them say no spraying except between 2 and 10 mph.

    Or they say 15 mph limit unless sensitive crops, wildlife habitat, water or residential areas are 250 feet away or more.
    This is found on the last paragraph of most labels of lawn herbicides, Under "Drift control".

    It appears limits apply to a non-phenoxy herbicide like Octane, or Quicksilver, also. And so probably it applies to almost everything--agricultural included.

    When did this happen--and whose idea was it?
  4. DA Quality Lawn & YS

    DA Quality Lawn & YS LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 9,267

    aka Turflon Ester. Triclopyr will toast white and red clover.
  5. Skipster

    Skipster LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,076

    When did this happen? FIFRA was amended in 1988 to accelerate the re-registration of all products with active ingredients registered before Nov. 1, 1984, and calls for the development and submission of data to support the reregistration of an active ingredient, as well as a review of all submitted data by the EPA. So, ALL products we use that have AIs originally registered before Nov 1984 will have to be registered again.

    During this process, label language can change. The 2,4-D re-registration was completed in June 2005 and the new restrictions on drift were required to be in place on labels produced in 2011 or later. Other phenoxy herbicides (MCPP, MCPA) have gone through re-registration and have different labels than they used to.


    The law says that it is our responsibility as applicators to read and follow the label restrictions. I think a lot of people aren't reading them and are in violation. We can't rely on suppliers. None of the JDL guys in my markets knew anything about it (6 of them said there was no change at all), but I pointed it out to them on the label of the stuff they were selling.

    The EPA is restricting this stuff because they think lawn care guys are applying this stuff willy nilly without regard to the label. If these restrictions are new to anyone on this site, then the EPA is right -- lawn care guys are applying willy nilly and we ARE the problem!
  6. RigglePLC

    RigglePLC LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 13,674

    I suspect that the introduction of 2,4-D resistant corn has the vegetable soybean and fruit growers extremely worried that it will lead huge increases in 2,4-D use, and to massive losses due to 2,4-d drift. And I think that they succeeded in convincing the EPA to go along with major restrictions on all phenoxy products and most other herbicides.

    It appears that there is now a restriction to spraying of most herbicides limited to between 2 and 10 mph. But for some products up to 15 mph is allowed with a 250 foot margin for non-target plants.

    Second restriction it seems that that would make it impossible to apply herbicides within almost any city.
  7. Skipster

    Skipster LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,076

    The restrictions are based on AI, not specific product. So, if you're using a 2,4-D + dicamba product, you;re limited to 2-15 mph. But, if you're using a 3-way w/ 2,4-D + MCPA or MCPP, you're limited to no less than 2 for 2,4-D, but no more than 10 for the MCPP or MCPA.

    I have alternatives for my two warm season locations, but I don't know what to do for my cool season locations.

    Other restrictions are for triazine herbicides, like simazine and atrazine (which are mainly warm season herbicides). The label says we can't apply in winds greater than 10 mph. We can't apply within 50 ft of perennial or intermittent streams (which dept ag where I operate says can be a ditch at the end of a customer's driveway) and can't apply within 200 ft of natural or impounded lakes or reservoirs. So, that rules out the several houses with ponds on the neighbors property, as well as the cmmercial shopping center with the retention pond 150 ft away from the parking lot islands I treat.

    So, I ask again, how many applicators out there know and follow these restrictions?

    My guess is that not many of us know and follow these. Maybe we ARE as bad as the media and the EPA are making us out to be. These restrictions have been out there for over a year and there are still LOTS of LCOs (including those on this board who talk loudly about being licensed) who are ignoring them.
  8. Pythium

    Pythium LawnSite Member
    from OHIO
    Messages: 166

    This is why you put old labels on new jugs. LOL just kidding. We have a company rule of no spraying over 10mph. You look like a idiot to the homeowner anyway. We lose some decent days I'll admit.
  9. Skipster

    Skipster LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,076

    You laugh at the old label thing, but I heard guys in JDL stores telling my competitors to do precisely that.

    But, you're solution was what I was getting at -- how do you deal with this. You guys deal with the wind speed issue by not apraying at all on days when the wind is blowing at or over 10 mph. I have a location in Columbus, OH. The forecast for today and tomorrow is winds S to SW at 5-10 mph. Would you just not spray today and tomorrow? What about the 250 ft setback from susceptible plants downwind when wind is less than 10 mph? 10 mph is not a lot of wind -- doesn't move my spray stream from Lesco LCO gun at all. Plus, I recorded 250 days last year in CMH that had winds at 10 mph or higher -- my entire season! Does that mean that if you were in CMH, you wouldn't spray at all?

    This certainly makes it hard to run a business!

    I've tried sending guys out with handheld wind speed meters, but the dept of ag always uses the wind speed at the local airport, which is always higher than in the neighborhoods I spray (no trees, houses, etc to block wind).
  10. DA Quality Lawn & YS

    DA Quality Lawn & YS LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 9,267

    We get about 1 or two 'calm' days per month here in SE MN (home of a thousand wind turbines, get my drift). Most days a fairly calm and good spraying day is 10-15 MPH.
    What I am saying is you do what you have to do to serve your customers right.

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