color temps

Discussion in 'Landscape Lighting' started by Mike M, Feb 2, 2013.

  1. steveparrott

    steveparrott LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,276

    James, both companies have been working extensively with LED's but have not, to my knowledge, come up with lenses specifically for LED's. They do note, however, that colors are significantly different using the same lenses with either LED or incandescent. And, I suspect significant differences between various LED chip manaufacturers -such differences explained by differences in CCT and CRI.

    We will be launching a new series of fixtures in a few months and my intention is to encourage use of colors with these fixtures - especially with architecture, hardscape, and statuary. I'm working closely with Rosco to develop a series of colors optimized for our LED's and will fully document (through photos) the effects of these colors.

    I'd love to see designers develop an refined eye for color - similar to how it's been used in film and theater, and in high-end architectural lighting design.
  2. dglights

    dglights LawnSite Member
    Messages: 44

    The polycarbonate is for indoors. I've used their glass filters for warming 3000k to 2700k and they didn't cut the light down that much. This isn't really necessary with today's LEDs if your using high quality and tight binning. As far as changing white to color I've run into the same issue as James - not much light left.
  3. Steve Atkinson

    Steve Atkinson LawnSite Member
    Messages: 94

    Back to Mike's original question, yes, color lamps are available from Brilliance LED. Besides the warm and cool whites, red, green, blue, and amber are also available in the mr-16, the par36, and the bi-pin.
  4. dglights

    dglights LawnSite Member
    Messages: 44

    Steve A

    Could you tell me what makes a LED lamp approved for outdoor and enclosed fixture use?

  5. INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting

    INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,102

    Steve is right, there are coloured LED lamps available, but I would encourage you to sample and test them before you spec them on a customer's system. Great for festive displays etc, but I would not be encouraging anyone to be shining them onto natural foliage. Unless you were lighting a theme park at disney maybe.

    As for your question Sherman... LED lamps that have been designed for outdoor and enclosed fixtures have many features and attributes that most other LED lamps do not share. Take the line of LED lamps that I designed for instance: They are moisture proofed with all drivers being fully potted in epoxy and a conformal coating applied to chips and board. They do not use electrolytic capacitors on the driver circuit as these have a horrible failure rate in outdoor applications. (moisture and freezing issues).

    They are designed to be installed in enclosed fixtures in that they can handle the extra heat that is developed in these applications. By using a full IC driver (lower operating temperatures), thermal mounting epoxy (for better convection from the LED board to the heat sink), and a high performance heat sink (the finned design has up to 300% more surface area than most cast heat sinks), the lamps are able to operate well withing the LED chips heat specifications, even when fully enclosed in a fixture.

    I can't speak for other LED lamps, but I do know that the LED lamps that I designed and engineered have performed very well over the course of the last 3+ years in harsh outdoor environments and enclosed fixtures. I have not noticed significant lumen depreciation, fading, or colour instability and have installed thousands and thousands of them with great results.
  6. dglights

    dglights LawnSite Member
    Messages: 44

    Thanks James

    So basically a very efficient drive circuit that can handle extreme temperatures and moisture protection. Would ceramic caps be acceptable? I see a lot of electrolytic caps being used. I just purchased a LED lamp because it's rated for outdoor/enclosed fixture use and looked really good - like it was made out of "Gold". It's not potted and has electrolytic cap. Claims it's passed extensive moisture and electrical testing.

    Are the finned heat sinks effective without air flow? Have you seen that they help? My CPU has a great heat sink but if the fan goes out...

    Do you offer your lamps for indoor use? I would think that would be a good market and application.
  7. INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting

    INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,102

    Hi Sherman. There are several different types of capacitors that will work in the application. I am not an electrical engineer, so I cannot really comment on whether a ceramic capacitor would be any better in this application than an electrolytic capacitor. What I do know is that electrolytic capacitors are the most commonly used and also the achilles heel for most LED lamps when used in moist or cold environments. Condensation on the capacitor's leads will cause arching and when the electrolytes freeze they expand and crack the capacitor. If the lamp you have there is not potted, I doubt it will handle condensation or moisture ingress. You could try it... put it in the freezer for a few hours and then take it out and put it in a warm humid environment and power it up. Or just lightly spray it with water while it is powered on. My guess is failure once condensation and moisture form on the driver circuit.

    I found the finned heat sinks to be more effective at conducting/convecting heat away from the LEDs. This testing was done through many trials and iterations. At the time it was a completely novel approach to LED lamp heat sinks, and has proven to be very effective. I do not have an instrument here that could measure it, but I am convinced that even inside a relatively small enclosure like a fixture there are air currents, if only minute, that allow the finned heat sinks to operate more effectively than the cast heat sinks (which tend to rely more on conduction (thermal mass) than convection.)

    The LED lamps will certainly work indoors as well as outdoors, however they are not dimmable, which is an issue for most indoor residential applications. Great for indoor commercial, display, signage, etc etc.
  8. Steve Atkinson

    Steve Atkinson LawnSite Member
    Messages: 94

    Hi Sherman,

    James pretty much covered this. I will say that Brilliance lamps are designed from the start with outdoor lighting fixture use in mind. They can definitely be used indoors and are fully dimmable with a magnetic ballast.

    The drawback with dimming is that the internal electronics package will be running in conditions other than for which it was designed. This could shorten the expected life although studies on this are not complete nor thus far conclusive.

    Also, the 120v series are fully dimmable as well.
  9. dglights

    dglights LawnSite Member
    Messages: 44

    Good info from you both.

    James are you not using a capacitor? I've seen no cap designs.

    Do you recommend larger fixtures for better air circulation?

    Magnetic dimmers work well with three LEDs in series. You should be able to get full range dimming when using dimmable triple LED lamps. The single LED lamps I've seen only go down to about 40%. The magnetic dimmers are set-up for 12V and triple LEDs are close to this. There are other ways to dim but magnetic is pretty simple, available and economical. I recommend wiring like you would for halogen and balance the load so you have close to the same voltage at each fixture you want to dim.

    I don't know about freezing and spraying water on my new $$$ gold lamp James but if I do I'll take video
  10. INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting

    INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,102

    Sherman. Im not about to go divulging what components are used on the driver circuit of the lamps. :) I see that DGlights is now offering an LED 'module' (lamp by any other name...) that looks interesting.

    I don't recommend using any type of fixture other than the one you are most comfortable with. The testing of the lamps was done with several different fixtures including a lumiere 203 bullet, which is one of the smallest fixtures on the market. No worries.

    It is a problematic generalization to say that magnetic dimers work well for LED lamps. (in any configuration) It all depends on the driver architecture on the lamp (or fixture for that matter). When a lamp says that it is not dimmable, I would recommend that you do not attempt to dim it. Then there are those that claim to be dimmable, but really are not... as they tend to only provide limited output ranges of 20%-90% when connected to either leading or trailing edge dimmers. Full range dimming of LEDs is a lot more complex that it might appear. The miniaturization of the dimming circuits is the real challenge, and what causes so many truly dimmable LED lamps to end up being significantly larger than the ANSI size formats that they advertise to be.

    As for your 'gold' lamp... are you sure that is not just anodized aluminum? I know that CRS makes some lamps that cost about as much as Gold does! I'm not sure why would anyone drop $$$ on an LED lamp when they can get the best for only $$. :)

Share This Page