this problem i see with that is that when you compact your paver into the sand it will not migrate as far between the joint, thus creating a weaker interlock.

 

You will tend to get more horizontal migration due to the lack of interlock.

Chris

 

What they're doing is wasting time. When you screed sand, you leave a 1 inch (approximately) layer of sand on top of your base. I know people that are anal and think that if theres even a thumb print in the sand, the job will be messed up. NOT TRUE!. Sometimes there are jobs where you need to start in a corner and have no access. You must go across the sand. You could put a small strip of plywood over the sand and start laying that way, but a simple fact of Physics proves a inch of sand is a inch of sand. If you were to step right on the sand, and even walk back/forth many times, it's still an inch!. (as long as you dont kick it or mess it up). Also- Sand has round particles... like marbles. If the sand is compacted- either by foot or plate compactor, once you lay the pavers over it and re-tamp, the harmonic frequency will turn the sand to liquid, so it will still even out and flow up into your joints. It's a fail proof cushion. This is the reason for not using screenings. Stone dust/screenings will not "liquefy" under the vibration of the compactor and just pack down harder. This can be beneficial if your skilled at troweling or have a problem area that needs a little stiffening, but for the average job, always use concrete sand and dont tamp before. No reason for it.

 

Couple of guys I know use this method and swear by, me based on personal and ICPI instructions don't see any benefit but if it works for you why not use it, I really don't agree 100% with ICPI claiming not interlocking will be achieved if sand is pre-compacted I think is the same result if you sweep the sand from the top and make sure it gets into those joints by compacting real good, as a matter of fact I don't use sand anymore or stonedust, we use 1/4" gravel for the bedding base with real good results.

 

What they're doing is wasting time. When you screed sand, you leave a 1 inch (approximately) layer of sand on top of your base. I know people that are anal and think that if theres even a thumb print in the sand, the job will be messed up. NOT TRUE!. Sometimes there are jobs where you need to start in a corner and have no access. You must go across the sand. You could put a small strip of plywood over the sand and start laying that way, but a simple fact of Physics proves a inch of sand is a inch of sand. If you were to step right on the sand, and even walk back/forth many times, it's still an inch!. (as long as you dont kick it or mess it up). Also- Sand has round particles... like marbles. If the sand is compacted- either by foot or plate compactor, once you lay the pavers over it and re-tamp, the harmonic frequency will turn the sand to liquid, so it will still even out and flow up into your joints. It's a fail proof cushion. This is the reason for not using screenings. Stone dust/screenings will not "liquefy" under the vibration of the compactor and just pack down harder. This can be beneficial if your skilled at troweling or have a problem area that needs a little stiffening, but for the average job, always use concrete sand and dont tamp before. No reason for it.

You're kidding right? Please tell me you are kidding! First, washed concrete sand has angular particles...masonry or any other improper sand has round particles. Never use a soil w/ round particles. Second, Sand NEVER liquifies when compacted....who told you this? The vibration settles the paver into the UNCOMPACTED sand. If your sand is precompacted it WILL NOT move into the joints and your pavers will most likely suffer from horizontal migration. Thirdly, you are saying that an inch of sand is still an inch even when you step on it. NOT TRUE! sand compacts just like any other soil. When you compact you are eliminating air molecules and pockets from the soil you are using...thus you are turning an inch of fluffy, air filled sand into 5/8" of fully compacted, airless sand. There are many more things that I could hammer you on, but I'm getting a headache from thinking about contractors like you. No wonder your jobs fail.

Chris

 

Couple of guys I know use this method and swear by, me based on personal and ICPI instructions don't see any benefit but if it works for you why not use it, I really don't agree 100% with ICPI claiming not interlocking will be achieved if sand is pre-compacted I think is the same result if you sweep the sand from the top and make sure it gets into those joints by compacting real good, as a matter of fact I don't use sand anymore or stonedust, we use 1/4" gravel for the bedding base with real good results.

You're just as bad!

Chris

 

Hey Chris, How's it going?

Ready for another breakfast when things slow down?

Tim

 

Absolutely Tim! You name it, I'm there! BTW, things never slow down! LOL!

Chris

 

I think i am finally ready for a lawnsite get to gether. Someone needs to have a BBQ at their house!

 

I love hearing how engineers are stupid and contractors know because they are in the field. Most of the guys who have not had serious issues is because there work has yet to stand the test of time sure a patio will be great week one, month one, year one. Go back year 5 and 10 then you get your real answers.

Don't compact your sand it is a waste of time because your not installing it correctly.

Sand is round? what beaches do you go to?

 

I think i am finally ready for a lawnsite get to gether. Someone needs to have a BBQ at their house!

Well good timing, I just bought a nice cast iron weber this evening. Come on up to Canada and have a real beer!:canadaflag:

 

How far east are you in ON?

 

You're kidding right? Please tell me you are kidding! First, washed concrete sand has angular particles...masonry or any other improper sand has round particles. Never use a soil w/ round particles. Second, Sand NEVER liquefies when compacted....who told you this? The vibration settles the paver into the UNCOMPACTED sand. If your sand is precompacted it WILL NOT move into the joints and your pavers will most likely suffer from horizontal migration. Thirdly, you are saying that an inch of sand is still an inch even when you step on it. NOT TRUE! sand compacts just like any other soil. When you compact you are eliminating air molecules and pockets from the soil you are using...thus you are turning an inch of fluffy, air filled sand into 5/8" of fully compacted, airless sand. There are many more things that I could hammer you on, but I'm getting a headache from thinking about contractors like you. No wonder your jobs fail.

Chris

For a contractor that's supposed to be professional in the industry, you certainly don't know more than the average homeowner. Do you even know why sand is recommended for the bedding layer?? Because it is a fail-proof layer in most circumstances to achieve a even, level surface. The sand, under the harmonic vibrations will "liquefy" AKA- smooth out and compress evenly, provided there are rigid edge restraints. If the edge restraints fail, YES the sand will keep forcing out with continued vertical force. Its obvious to anyone in the trade reading this what happens while walking behind a plate compactor.

Even if someone tamped the sand prior to placement, Once the pavers are compacted afterwards, the sand will still be forced up into the joints. That little bit of interlock (1/4-3/8") is not going to stop a driveway from migrating horizontally. The laying pattern dictates the degree of interlock by intersecting bond lines.

I hate to dampen your optimism, but unfortunately you are wrong again. Sand does not compact- it will only compress when bound on all sides. Somebody show me compacted sand!- Anyone. I wanna see you make a snowball from sand. Lets see you push a shopping cart through plate tamped sand. It will not hold together. Round Particles! Would you like to explain to our professional community how if you screeded one inch of sand, and it suddenly vanishes to some other number by simply walking on it? Perhaps you failed Physics in school? Or did you not get that far? The sand can be there 10 minutes, 10 days or 10 years. Wet, dry, hot, cold etc. etc. An inch is an inch PERIOD. You can lay pavers over pre-tamped sand, sand with footprints in it, dry soft sand, or damp sand. It's still an inch and after the final tamping the results will still be the same. :drinkup:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AztlanLC
Couple of guys I know use this method and swear by, me based on personal and ICPI instructions don't see any benefit but if it works for you why not use it, I really don't agree 100% with ICPI claiming not interlocking will be achieved if sand is pre-compacted I think is the same result if you sweep the sand from the top and make sure it gets into those joints by compacting real good, as a matter of fact I don't use sand anymore or stonedust, we use 1/4" gravel for the bedding base with real good results.

You're just as bad!

Chris

AztlanLC is correct. Sweeping sand over the pavers and compacting not only achieves equal interlock, it also helps provide a protective cushion for the plate tamper to glide across the paver's surface and protect it from scuffing.

Laying the pavers on 1/4 Aggregate is acceptable for permeable pavements and storm water management. Chris, do us a favor... put your hands around your neck and choke yourself.

 

WHERES THE INTERLOCK??

Great pattern! Oh wait.. the sand must have squished up into the joints. My bad.

photo compliments of CGLAND

 

This is a very interesting debate for sure. Is it possible that you both are correct in certain aspects of it and you both are incorrect in certain aspect of it as well?
I say this calls for a sand off!

 

I agree on the sand off...

I dont compact sand before laying, but I can see the argument that it may not make a difference. You cant really compact sand, lest you wet it, then thats a whole other story.

 

How far east are you in ON?

I see quebec "far east"

 

I wanna see you make a snowball from sand.

Sorry, but I'd like to see you make a "snowball" from anything other than SNOW! :hammerhead:

heck, i'd like to see you make a *ball* from crusher run. Being we all have a digital camera now-a-days - we await a photo of crusher run formed into a ball

I do not believe in tamping sand. Never have. never will.

Sand is for bedding purposes only. Hence the term "bedding sand".

We screed one inch. no more, no less. This way after the pavers are compacted, they are settled in by 1/2 an inch.

 

A sand-off it is!

Just don't get sand in your bed. Hehehe. :hammerhead:

When is the BBQ at Zedosix's? I'm getting hungry. :drinkup:

 

Sorry, but I'd like to see you make a "snowball" from anything other than SNOW! :hammerhead:

heck, i'd like to see you make a *ball* from crusher run. Being we all have a digital camera now-a-days - we await a photo of crusher run formed into a ball

I do not believe in tamping sand. Never have. never will.

Sand is for bedding purposes only. Hence the term "bedding sand".

We screed one inch. no more, no less. This way after the pavers are compacted, they are settled in by 1/2 an inch.

Your pavers settle by 1/2"... wow. Where does all that sand go if sand doesn't compact.

 

Your pavers settle by 1/2"... wow. Where does all that sand go if sand doesn't compact.

EXACTLY!

- When we excavate, for pedestrian use, we excavate 8-inches.

- 5-inches for the aggregate base

- 1 -inch of bedding sand

- 2 3/8-inch for the thickness of pavers.

Add up those numbers and you'll get 8 3/8".

yet, when it's all said and done.......the pavement SOMEHOW is perfectly flush with the intended final elevation!

How does this happen???? :dancing:

Maybe we're just using sub-par pavers and the paver units theirselves are compressing.....as WE ALL know - the sand doesn't compact :hammerhead:

Anyone here ever been to Florida? Anyone ever seen all those buildings constructed at the edge of the ocean? Anyone ever notice that the soil there in FL is sand?? If sand doesn't compact - then how the hell are all those buildings not falling to one side?

I was at a seminar years ago. And there was an engineer speaking. ICPI seminar, if I'm not mistaken. And the engineer said "sand will compact just as well as aggregate, but the reason it is not used for a base is because sand is too expensive, aggregate is cheaper and aggregate will compact as well.

 

I didn't mean to start a fight, JEEZZZZ, but it is always interesting to see who has what to say........I see the merits of compacting the sand in ease of install, again if I saw the patio in 5 years and it looked as good then as it does now I'd probably do it myslef, it really does simplfy things but for now....I guess the jury is still out on this one. Sand in your bed sounds like it might hurt...,...LOL.....I like the idea of a BBQ, I think Matt volunteered since it is his idea. Maybe we could get Lawnsite to contact some of the sponsors to see if they are into doing a mini expo sort of thing, I have a good connection at one of the ski resorts here in Jersey.......

 

.....I have a good connection at one of the ski resorts here in Jersey.......

For some reason a meet in NEW JERSEY just does not sound very appealing to me.

the meet, sure.

new jersey?? Yuck.

 

NJ is a good place to make $$$$