Tony Soprano did well.:laugh:
Mike

 

Anyone here ever been to Florida? Anyone ever seen all those buildings constructed at the edge of the ocean? Anyone ever notice that the soil there in FL is sand?? If sand doesn't compact - then how the hell are all those buildings not falling to one side?

I was at a seminar years ago. And there was an engineer speaking. ICPI seminar, if I'm not mistaken. And the engineer said "sand will compact just as well as aggregate, but the reason it is not used for a base is because sand is too expensive, aggregate is cheaper and aggregate will compact as well.

LOL do you really think buildings are built on sand? There are pillars or pilings that are driven down to bedrock. Even if Florida is mostly sand, there is still bedrock present for which these pilings are driven down into.

The ICPI would never suggest to substitute one material over another based upon price. They are not a financial adviser. It's all based upon A.S.T.M. (American Society for Testing and Materials) specifications. Sand and/or aggregate is not always present in every part of North America, and by following A.S.T.M. guidelines an equal substitute may be used. For example, on a big demolition job- They may have a crusher on site to recycle demolition concrete. The recycled concrete can be used as base material in a future parking lot or roadway.

 

There are a lot of guys here that live in NJ. Seems like there many more of them lately anyway.

 

This is pretty funny stuff, sand compacts, sand doesent compact, yes it does, no it doesen't..... oh my god.... one of you guys would be fired I won't say who though.

 

This is pretty funny stuff, sand compacts, sand doesent compact, yes it does, no it doesen't..... oh my god.... one of you guys would be fired I won't say who though.

I think if you take an inch of sand and screed a board across it, yes it will compact, mostly because some of the sand is being forced up the brick joints. I imagine there is some degree of compacting (removing minute air pockets) etc but to compact it by 50% I find a bit hard to digest. Put me down for yes sand compacts.

 

Sand compacts, but not alot. Where I live all houses on the shore are on pilings, the pilings DO NOT GO to bedrock. There is no bedrock. Here all the companies around me compact the sand. I don't know but I don't think its a big a deal. What they do is compact the sand then screed the top so that the small imperfections in the base are forgiven but the top of the sand is still soft enough that the sand compacts under the pavers when the pavers are tamped. I hear the argument that the base is the final level of the pavers, but I've seen this done enough to know that the compacted sand isn't going anywhere. Still I would suggest doing it by ICPI standards so that when we give prices out people don't realize why we are so high.

 

I really can't belive this arguement is going on? If there are guidelines for compressive strength, specs for gradation of modified, specs for welding, codes to follow, specs for shear pins, specs specs specs that are followed everyday in every workplace..........why are we arguing about ICPI specs? Has anyone ever asked an engineer why we should not compact the sand? Is anyone on here an engineer?

Follow the specs and the guidelines and you won't have a problem. Shortcut them, and I assure you'll have issues.

There has been a spec out for about 6 years (atleast) for overdig areas around new construction. In case no one saw the memo, your work will fail in those areas if you don't follow it. So I would suggest you follow the ICPI specs for bedding sand and stop with the debate or your work WILL fail..................like the over dig you knew nothing about.

Dan

 

I buy pre-compacted sand.*trucewhiteflag*

 

Sand does compact but I never saw any of my jobs when I used 1" of state approved concrete sand to compact by half inch, a 1/8" or even a 1/4" sounds more logical to me.
The real tread was about pre-compacting sand which honestly don't see any harm and if it works for them good not that I have ever done it.
The method we use I learned from a friend of mine that has being laying pavers for many years now and that guarantees their jobs 10years, I have also seeing many of his projects with 10+ years and they still look more than good.
Lateral movement by pre-compacting honestly don't believe it, unless sand would turn solid I don't see that to be true.
Get 3 4x4 sheet of plywood install sand and lay pavers on one the next install sand pre-compact and install pavers, now push the pavers from the side and see which ones have more resistance.
You can do the same for different laying patterns and you'll understand why some are recommend it more than others at least for a driveway.

 

I think I'm going to pat myself on the back for a good thread.......LOL. And to all of you who think NJ stinks...There are many parts that do, however the area I refer to is very nice, lots of open space and farm land, I'm sure Matt can verify this.......Scenic Sussex County, it's not all Newark in Jersey.

 

I think the message to convey about compacting sand is basically that it will compress and/or compact dense and tight, provided that:
1) It's constrained from moving in all directions.
2) It is not used a leveling pad for any type of structure or wall, because it can be easily washed out, causing failure.

For those of you that live near a beach, lake or ocean...think about what happens when your standing on that nice hard sand close to the water and a wave washes up past you. As the water recedes, you sink down each time. Sand may compact/compress, but it's round particle size allows it to easily wash out.

 

I think the message to convey about compacting sand is basically that it will compress and/or compact dense and tight, provided that:
1) It's constrained from moving in all directions.
2) It is not used a leveling pad for any type of structure or wall, because it can be easily washed out, causing failure.

For those of you that live near a beach, lake or ocean...think about what happens when your standing on that nice hard sand close to the water and a wave washes up past you. As the water recedes, you sink down each time. Sand may compact/compress, but it's round particle size allows it to easily wash out.

Beach sand is round, it is washed sand, it is supposed to be round. Concrete sand is angular, which packs tighly when compressed. We do not use beach sand under our pavers. I take that back, I do not use beach sand under my pavers, maybe you do. But the properties are night and day when you are talking about standing on the beach. Dig a very, very deep hole on the beach and you should find some angular sand, that is the sand that we use, not the washed sand that hits your feet. Do some research on google about sand and its properties, then do some research on concrete sand specs and gradation.

Dan

 

You beat me to the punch. Concrete (aka bedding sand) should be angular.

funny how it's the first thing mentioned in that section huh?
I have a feeling the companies compacting their sand for speed and easier installs also cuts other corners. ex. 2" lifts for compacting 2A base, the right kind of sand and stone. ICPI put more money and research into these topics than anyone one of us. Why do they spend almost 4 hours in ICPI classes explaining soil characteristics and the importance of using the proper aggregrates for the job if it wasn't essential to a properly installed patio. I'm not one to start an argument, but bedding sand shouldn't be round, too fine, compacted or have too much moisture. These are simple guidelines to avoid problems.

 

Well i am glad to see another debate on tamping bedding sand. I thought the one we all had a couple months ago would be over but here we go again. Atleast it makes for good and (sometimes funny) converstation. And to everyone stay busy and good luck for the rest of the season.