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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Doing a big job where the lower section is retaining wall and 25x25 paver area. The top is 4” base and bottom is 22”, so about 10” average really.

it’s way in a backyard and down a bit of a hill. I do have a 17g excavator there now so with a chain I can move around a compactor, but want to be fairly efficient.
Basically need a machine that can cover 8” lifts if possible. Does anyone know what machine I can rent that can do that?

or should I just do a jumping Jack machine on the bottom 200’ sq where it’s the deep road base
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Honestly I could have done it with 3-6” or whatever and took my time but we had to bring all the base at once. It was originally a $15,000 lawn tear out and new soil with seed. Then 3 weeks ago it’s oh I hav a small change before you start, 60k hardscape job
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Jumping jacks aren’t good for stone, only dirt.
I’m not really sure what you’re asking. You want to pack 8” at a time? There is no shortcut to packing a base. It just takes time.
well it’s just a long treck from driveway to backyard and was wondering most efficient way to compact. I’ll probably end up just spending a full day shuffling piles around and using the 300lb machine with 3” lifts
 

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well it’s just a long treck from driveway to backyard and was wondering most efficient way to compact. I’ll probably end up just spending a full day shuffling piles around and using the 300lb machine with 3” lifts
I have yet to come up with a good solution to situations like these either. Doing it the slow way is probably the best. Even with a heavier machine, you might be able to go to 6” or 8” lifts, but when terrain and access has you limited, it just means it costs more to do!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
While were here wanted to get some second thoughts on tapering side wall on raised patio areas. Or crowning the pavers. I did one fairly large 2 foot tall raised patio around 1800 square feet but otherwise haven't really done one. That one was rounded and I dropped the grade for drainage. This one is a bit taller about 3.5 feet or 5 blocks and a cap. I remember a thread here from a few years ago where some were saying angle the walls or put a garden bed along the front of the wall. Not really an option on this plan.
 

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What brand of blocks?

I just have trouble following your questions. I think it’s just a word picture issue if that makes sense. When you say raised patio, I think wall blocks to make it raised, filled with stone or heavily compacted fill, then a paver patio. Is this correct? Or do you mean a wall around the patio? Perhaps a sketch or a picture would help me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Yea its Allan Block like these ones but the 18" wide and 12" depth ones (80 lb blocks) and the pavers would be flush with wall

basically a 16 foot straight run straight from big concrete existing retaining wall and bottom of stairs, then a curve in front. Only its 5 blocks high plus the cap, not 2 like in the above picture
 

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Just to share something, Belgard now has patio pavers with built in drainage. They will drain into the base, and you can use tile to collect the water and get it out of the base. Just wanted to share that. I have not used any. Just had a meeting last week with a Belgard rep, and he was telling me about them.

I don't think you will go wrong just making it flat. Flat will drain, but I understand not wanting puddles, which can happen. If I was going to slope it, I would either crown it like maybe 1/2" in the center (or at the rear depending on shape) and slope to the wall from there, but I wouldn't crown it much. You could always put a drain in the center if you're worried about sag, I probably wouldn't for the size you stated. It doesn't take much to make water flow.

Are you building any type of rail or wall to keep people from walking off the 5 block high point?
 

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While were here wanted to get some second thoughts on tapering side wall on raised patio areas. Or crowning the pavers. I did one fairly large 2 foot tall raised patio around 1800 square feet but otherwise haven't really done one. That one was rounded and I dropped the grade for drainage. This one is a bit taller about 3.5 feet or 5 blocks and a cap. I remember a thread here from a few years ago where some were saying angle the walls or put a garden bed along the front of the wall. Not really an option on this plan.
I remember the thread about that a year or so back. I don't remember who posted it or what came of it.
I don't see how you could pitch the blocks on a slope without having to angle them up as they went laterally at the bottom of the slope if that makes sense.
I agree with J Baker, make it flat and if you are really concerned, use the drainable pavers. Slightly different look though. I also think if you don't use sand for screed, but some 1/4-10 or whatever you call it up there, and no poly sand (unless it is the permeable type) pavers will drain quite well without any pitch.
Last year we did a job, basically a recessed patio surrounded by walls after the unfinished basement storage area was turned into living quarters. The whole thing was excavated out of the side of a hill. While we pitched the subgrade native layer a good 2 to 3 percent away from the house in one direction, I told my foreman to make the patio level, 0% pitch, primarily to keep the paver height consistent along the door thresh hold, and also to avoid having to dig deeper into the hill which was becoming like bedrock.
After the job was done, I realized that I had basically just created a fishbowl that water and surrounding drainage could fill up and flood the new basement living area. I was super paranoid, went over there with a hose to try and simulate a heavy rain to see what would happen, told the clients I was just cleaning the pavers off ;).
A few weeks later I left town for a wedding right before our first big rain event of the fall. I checked the forecast and saw a prediction of 1.2 inches of rain over the night. Plenty of water to prove whether our patio would flood or not.
I anxiously awaited a phone call from the client which never came. Many big rain events later that winter i finally relaxed! There was no issue with ponding, flooding which I primarily attribute to the 1/4-10 screed base. That was 15 months ago...
 

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I also think if you don't use sand for screed, but some 1/4-10 or whatever you call it up there, and no poly sand (unless it is the permeable type) pavers will drain quite well without any pitch.

There was no issue with ponding, flooding which I primarily attribute to the 1/4-10 screed base. That was 15 months ago...
I think you are spot on with that. That was something else my Belgard rep and I talked about, not using sand as a screed, but instead using #12 or 1/4-10 (whatever it is called in your area) because sand doesn't drain well. Belgard now suggests like #8 washed stone with a #12 screed. (Again, rock size terms seem to vary place to place.) We had been using rock instead of sand, so I felt good about what we have been doing. I am new to Hardscapes, so I pay a lot of attention to what I hear from others and from reps. Good to hear from someone else doing it the same way. Another thing that was mentioned along side of the better drainage on the finished product, was that it also drains with no pooling during construction. You can get a large rain with no ponding and go right back to work. Also, you can compact the #12 and walk on it without messing up the site, so staying off the prep area isn't a concern. It really makes sense.

Excellent job by the way!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Im on a Facebook hardscape group and most people are using the 3/4 inch sized clean base and then the 1/4" roughly sized clean base instead of sand. Funny how things change like that, quite a bit different from road base. I know a couple people in the industry who wont change their ways though.
 

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Im on a Facebook hardscape group and most people are using the 3/4 inch sized clean base and then the 1/4" roughly sized clean base instead of sand. Funny how things change like that, quite a bit different from road base. I know a couple people in the industry who wont change their ways though.
That was something else my Belgard rep and I talked about, not using sand as a screed, but instead using #12 or 1/4-10 (whatever it is called in your area) because sand doesn't drain well. Belgard now suggests like #8 washed stone with a #12 screed.
I have been installing hardscapes since 2012. We used to use the traditional 3/4 minus crusher run for the base and sand for the screed like everyone did.
Then permeable paver installations started getting popular which use an open graded base (no minus fines) and small gravel screed to allow for maximum drainage. I think folks started realizing there were more benefits than just drainage and began using this technique for all installations.
We experimented on a few jobs, both pavers and walls, using a clean 3/4" gravel base with the 1/4 inch gravel for screed layer.
We immediately found the advantages using the 1/4 gravel for screed and have never gone back to sand, but after a few jobs we abandoned the clean gravel and went back to 3/4 minus. I don't think I would go back to using clean gravel for a base unless it was specified for a job. We just didn't like it..
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Plant Road surface Composite material Groundcover Bedrock

Road surface Asphalt Tar Grass Road

Plant Grass Urban design Landscape Groundcover

So I have my upper area done, all with clean gravel and open grade. Lower area does have road base.

So my wall actually tapers into natural boulders so I stop it at some point - on lower area I’m working on. Does anyone think it would be noticeable to have the bottom half of my wall flat but use a 1” per 8 foot slope for the upper half? Total area is about 26 long x 24 wide.
 

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Looks great Mitty. Nice work. Reminds me how much I used to enjoy cutting soldier course pavers on a wet table saw...in the winter.
I doubt anyone would notice a 1% sloped wall. I see companies do that and more like 5% around here all the time.
It will be a worthwhile experiment to report back on...
I'm real curious what I assume to be railing post brackets in the caps. Are they concreted in or just drilled into the caps?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Looks great Mitty. Nice work. Reminds me how much I used to enjoy cutting soldier course pavers on a wet table saw...in the winter.
I doubt anyone would notice a 1% sloped wall. I see companies do that and more like 5% around here all the time.
It will be a worthwhile experiment to report back on...
I'm real curious what I assume to be railing post brackets in the caps. Are they concreted in or just drilled into the caps?
well I already built the wall flat but the upper half is surrounded by natural boulders. So I was going to make the patio flat, or just have 1% grade on the top half of patio and blend it into flat. I don’t think it would be noticeable. I have 9” block buried but there is a natural rock step that I wanted an extra inch of paver on because it’s a tall step.

those brackets - I let them homeowner do it but he didn’t mention it until 2nd to last course. So it’s a 12” rebar with bracket and concrete in the top 2 rows. Then I notched caps around it. I know technically they say 3 rows.

I told him to make sure the rail is like 3’ tall or less and 1 side will be fastened to the house.

he is going to build something that hopefully won’t promote people sitting on it.
 
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