Concrete paver restraint tips??? HELP!!

Discussion in 'Landscape Architecture and Design' started by Guido, Feb 11, 2001.

  1. Guido

    Guido LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,087

    I think I've talked about this before, but never got much action on the subject. As most of you know, I'm over in Germany for a few years. I'm trying to get them to convert over to some type of flexible restraint so you can install one side after you lay your sidewalk or patio, etc. The problem I'm having is that for the past gazillion years, the Germans have used concrete edges (border stone) that are poured around with concrete and then lay the pavers and do way tooo much cutting in my opinion!! We did a sidewalk along side a new road we were building at the same time (there is a slideshow posted in the messages section of my website if you'd like to see what I'm talking about) and we had to work with our installed curb on one side, and of course, this boarderstone on the other. I made a little "jig" (the same thing I used as my "speed base" with some alterations) to space the blocks just far enough apart for no cutting, we also used the good old stringline, which always seems to fail us :(

    Anyway, that was the best way I've found here to get those boarderstones spaced so I don't have to cut any pavers. It was much closer than just string lines, but still a little bit off.

    Has anyone ever used this method of edge restraints? Or any tips on doing them just right?? Hopefully I can talk them into the flexible plastic product restarints this year. We'll see what happens.

    I'd appreciate any and all help on this topic! Thanks in Advance! ;)
  2. paul

    paul Lawnsite Addict
    Messages: 1,625

    Can you use a Holland type brick as your soldier course? If you can then run your pavers wild and cut them with a hand saw, faster than using a tub saw and the lines look better.
  3. Guido

    Guido LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,087

    I know exactly what your saying, and thats one of the benifits I'm trying to sell the flexible edging on. But right now we have to install a 2" wide piece of curb material all the way down on both sides BEFORE we lay the pavers. That means they have to fit perfect, which is not a huge problem on the straightaways IF, IF, IF, we get these concrete curb blocks (borderstone) just PERFECT. I don't know much about what a laser level can to, and just looking for some ideas or tips on how to keep these things spaced evenly apart. Lemme try to take a picture so you can see what I mean.

  4. Guido

    Guido LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,087

    Lanelle is going to post a picture from one of our jobs so I can show you guys what I'm talking about. We have to lay inside of these set concrete borders. (if this wasn't along a road, it would have another borderstone on the road side instead of the curb. If I layed them all and then cut with a K saw or hand concrete saw, I would then have to dig alongside the blocks almost 2 feet deep to get the borderstone in place and concrete it in there. I think If I did that it would for sure sink at least one row of blocks and be just as much as a P.I.T.A. !!

    I know the easy solution is to get them to stop putting in this concrete borderstone and start using a flexible one, but thats easier said than done. The flexible is not really accepted or used at all down here, but I'm going to keep trying. Try telling the people that invented this stuff that they're doing it wrong; you get looked at really funny! ;)

  5. Guido

    Guido LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,087

    In the picture you can see how when using the edge blocks on one side and laying normal and laying the edge blocks along the other side, most of it fit it perfect because I used that spacer I was talking about, but even then, you can see where there was a large section where I had to trim them down a bit to fit in.

    Okay, anyway, I'd like to ask a favor from someone with a digital camera. Please take some pics for me working with the flexible edges so I can show these guys how it works. From what I understand you make your base, than lay down one strip of edging for your soldier course that when you get to the other side and make your cut, you can either slide this edging under the pavers or but it up against it and spike it down. I'd really like to see some pictures of this so I can explain the system better, and maybe I can talk them into trying it out here.

    Thanksin Advance!
  6. Lanelle

    Lanelle LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,361

    To use the plastic edging, you have to make your compacted base extend beyond the pavers for a distance equal to the base depth. Otherwise, the spikes won't have a stable seating. Also, there must be a web site that shows these products in use.
  7. steveair

    steveair LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,073


    Not sure if I like the idea of 'spacing' the pavers so that you don't have to cut.

    The name, 'Interlocking paver stones' explains what I mean by this. If you are gapping the pavers a little bit so that you don't have to cut them, then you are destroying the structural integrity of the hole system. The pavers get a lot of strength by being 'tight'. If you space them, then you are basically setting each paver by itself, so instead of one solid structure, you get 1 thousand bricks all sitting on top of sand just waiting to frost heave all over the place.

    I think spacing to get a them to line up along a edge is a bad idea.

    The only solution to the problem, besides plastic edging, would be to use a soldier course along the curbing, and use a tool like probst's quick draw to scribe a line and cut the pavers.

    In my area, its usually the 'cheap' guys who try to do paver jobs without cutting. I think its a more professional, better looking job when edges are cut in. Usually, if you try to set up to not cut, it ends up looking 'cheap' as I would say. There's always a certain amount of cutting that goes along with pavers, even with plastic edge restraints.

  8. steveair

    steveair LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,073

    one more thing,

    this situation sounds alot like what they are doing in every town in my area. They are putting 2-3 foot strips of pavers between the concrete curb and the sidewalk along the mainstreets of town. The usually run a holland stone in a running bond pattern, and well, I always check it out. Sometimes, they get the spacing between the curb/sidewalk just right, and are able to put in exactly 12 rows, where other times, I've seen the spacing be a little off and the contractor is either stuck with 'floating' a smal gap on each side to get the pavers in, or they have to trim the pavers on one side to get them to fit. If you were real picky, I would trim both sides to give a 'symetrical' look, but being town work and 'low bidder' situations, most guys end up leaving a gap/spacing the pavers and filling with sand, or if they are in a good mood that day, trim the pavers on one side to fit.

    I think you are in 'ONE' of those situations that really can't be prevented. You are working in a Fixed area, so unless you spec. out a paver size/paver pattern that will fit perfectly in that area, and unless that area is completely uniform in dimensions, then you will be cutting.

  9. Guido

    Guido LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,087

    Thanks, I know what your saying about the gaps. I never try to space them out so they fit. Photopoint is down right now, but once I can upload this picture you'll see what I'm talking about. I line everything up and most of it is a perfect fit, uaually have to give it a couple hits with the rubber mallet to get them to squeeze in (don't know if this is just as bad as loose, but it seems to work) I was just wondering if you guys had any tips or tricks on how to lay these boarderstones in so they come pretty close in width alll the way down. I'll get a pic up as soon as PhotoPoint works again.

    Thanks again!
  10. diginahole

    diginahole LawnSite Member
    Messages: 249

    Here is a link to a good plastic edge restraint. It has detailed instalation specs. Just be careful before you show them to your client. It says that they should be installed before the pavers and the pavers cut into the edge. That's not really going to solve your problem. I always install this type of edge after the pavers are in place. To get the lip under the pavers you can use a soldier border paver to space it from your cut line (or un-cut as the case may be).

    BLair Deutekom

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