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That sounds to me as if you are making your legitimate clients bear the expense of giving free estimates to 'dead ends'. Is that fair?
I would say no. I do simple 3d designs that aren't expensive at all, but is still more than a consultation fee.

So ultimately the customer that buys the design isn't being overcharged in the least.

And ethically it wasn't my conscious intentions to use the design buyers to off set for the tire kickers. It just happened to work out that way.
 
#1 - The potential client calls and we use about 50 well crafted questions to prequalify the client. Once this is done we set up an appt with both spouses at thier place.

#2 - They know we are going to charge for plan (and its not $200 either), its a known fact before we come out. You won't get what you don't ask for, and you devalue your service tremendously if you give plans away for free. Don't give me that BS that I'm not going to get a job if I don't give a plan for free. We collect 50% before we leave to create the plan, balance due upon reveal at our offices.

Bottom line: You have to be confident in yourself, and your company. Your client is buying your company, what it stands for, and what it delivers. Not just a patio in the backyard. Competition? Bring it on.
 
When I get a call and while talking to the potential customer, if I hear this sentence "I am calling about a FREE estimate" I usually try to end the conversation as soon as possible and I normally dont bother returning the call. I usually charge $50.00 for a consult that is deductable if you accept my contract. In the old days I wouldnt charge a consult, but in todays market when the potential client is getting 5-8 bids, its simply not worth my time to give a feeler bid. I get calls all the time about driveways getting sink holes and walkways "dropping" I inform them that I have a $50 trip charge and they either say "great, when can you come by?" or "Oh, you charge for an estimate?" but its not an estimate, its a diagnosis. I charge $41 to send a sprinkler tech to trouble shoot a system, so why not charge to find a problem with pavers?
 
I would say no. I do simple 3d designs that aren't expensive at all, but is still more than a consultation fee.

So ultimately the customer that buys the design isn't being overcharged in the least.

And ethically it wasn't my conscious intentions to use the design buyers to off set for the tire kickers. It just happened to work out that way.
If this is true and the design buyers are not being overcharged, but the fee that they pay offsets the tire kickers, then the costs incurred in giving free consults/estimates to the tire kickers is absorbed BY YOU with revenue from another source. Which brings us back to the fact that consults/estimates incur costs and these costs should be borne by the party initiating the costs, namely the party that requests the estimate/consult.
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
Many good points!

One thing I wanna remind many folks of here is that prior tomthe recession I DID charge consult fees.

$30 a pop, and I was doing 11 estimates a week. I kept it at $30 cause people have that in their pocket. Any higher and they write a check! So this consult things isn't theory, I've done it!

I have survived through 2 years of recession. Barely.

The phone is ringing for work more than it has since 2007. I hoping to get my son into moto-cross racing on his KTM 50 this spring. I'm at the point where Ive learned to get by with very little (due to the recession) and I would rather teach the kid about losing and winning, rather than stand in someones yard talking about a pretend patio!

That and I just priced $18800 of work today and didn't leave my desk to do so! So that is spoiling me!

When you start pulling measurements and your education, knowledge, and experience are going to work - you're working for someone.

A pro is a pro. Doesnt matter if you're a CPA, attorney, plumber, or padio guy. I called a CPA last week, they won't even talk to me or answer a single question without billing $250 / hr.

Why do some feel we padio guys aren't worthy of being paid for what we know?

I think I'm gonna start playing with fees again.

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24 yrs under my belt and not one time did I charge a consultation fee. I've a pretty good sense of people and their intentions, you know I read people quite well, and will now only spend minimal time on a plan just enough to take my #'s from,
I shoot them a quick email stating rough prices then wait for a response. Last season I spent 50% less time on plans then the season before and still did the same production #s as the year before. I won't do a plan unless I get either a verbal or monetary comitment from them.
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
I believe I am good at reading people as well. But people also like to make themselves believe they are serious about getting work done, which in turn has contractors believing them.

A few months ago I was talking to someone who basically said he does something similar to what Zedo mentioned. I think he does decks or something carpentry related. He said he'll do a quick rough sketch with a quick rough estimate. Then he'll e-mail it to a prospective client and see if they like the design and are ok with the rough estimate, and if so - he finish the design and firm up the pricing. If not - he moves on.


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I hoping to get my son into moto-cross racing on his KTM 50 this spring. I'm at the point where Ive learned to get by with very little (due to the recession) and I would rather teach the kid about losing and winning, rather than stand in someones yard talking about a pretend patio!
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I am doing alot of work for a friend of mine who is a general contractor and has a great name around town and gets a ton of work from word of mouth. Well, me and him are currently bidding 2 HOA's for maintenance and I am cutting him in on 10% of the monthly charge, not bad. Well he called and asked me to bid 1200 sqft of paver work, fireplace and sitting area for a remodel he is doing. I gave him a price and he was shocked. He will usually mark up the price about 5% when he submits it to his customers, which is fine by me. He thought I might be too high, so I asked him to call 3 other companies that I know that can do the work. Well 2 bid the property dirt cheap, one was 48% cheaper and the other was 37% cheaper. The third asked him for a $125 design and estimate fee, my buddy asked why and he explained that it takes him roughly an hour of field work and 30 minutes to prepare the contract proposal. Well, my buddy balked and the guy said he would do it anyways! Well his bid came in at 15% cheaper than mine. I explained to my buddy that my prices are my prices and I would much rather lose the job than to do it for less than I wanted, hell I know my cost of doing business better than my compition. I will be the first to say that I am on the high side, but I would much rather make the same amount of money on 3 jobs than I would by under bidding 5. I just finished a 800 sqft job and I was talking to a guy at the distrubuter and he was asking me prices, which I didnt reveal and he said in order to move their pavers they are laying them as well, for $3.50 a sqft!!!!!! Well I will forever stick to Belgard from now on.
 
When you explain over the phone that your charge for designs, it's amazing the percentage that self-selects themselves out of an appointment. When I worked for a design-build we didn't charge for consults but we did for designs (had to pay my salary). Even hanging out at the home show this weekend with one of my contractors, when some people asked how the process worked and I explained that I charge for designs (y'know, being a designER) you could see them immediately check out. I probably could have said "ok, you can walk away now" to those folks and they would have been relieved, not offended.

So yeah, explaining that there's a charge for the design is a good prequalifier. As for a consult fee, it's a tough call. I feel like I'd want my volume of leads just a hair higher than where it is for me to make it a standard practice. Right now it's just case by case, either if they're a bit out of my way, want an appointment sooner than really works for me but they may be a good client, or if I can tell they want to pump me for info and then try to figure it out on their own with plants from Home Depot and a crew from Home Depot's parking lot.
 
...or if I can tell they want to pump me for info and then try to figure it out on their own with plants from Home Depot and a crew from Home Depot's parking lot.[/QUOTE said:
This is what we deal with at "Home Shows". Or the guys who think they can do it in a weekend with their drinking buddy.

I have just gotten to the point where I tell people up front "If the lowest price is what you are after, then we are NOT the company to do the job".

I will also shoot a very basic price out there just to see if we are even in the same ballpark. Or at least ask them if they have done ANY research into what their project would cost. About 1/3 of the people are BLOWN AWAY by the cost of a patio.
 
About 1/3 of the people are BLOWN AWAY by the cost of a patio.
Ya, people think they can just level out the ground and throw some pavers down and call it good.

Then about 3 months later they are calling someone to come fix their project.

I blame it all on the DIY shows, they make anything look like it can get done in a weekend. Too bad most of those shows are shot in locations that have little to no frost/freeze issues and don't require much prep or base work.
 
The estimate and the proposal was 99% complete. I just needed to know what style of paver they liked to wrap things up. When I met with them he liked Techo's Blu and she liked the Elena. So I told them to talk it over and get back with me.

Here, I spent an hr in travel time (both ways). I spent about 1.25 hrs meeting with them. I spent about 3 hrs on their design. And about 35 minutes job costing and drafting the proposal. I met with them at 5:30 on a tuesday night and I had the design and proposal completed by 3 pm the next day.
Some patios are cut and dry, no extensive grading, easy to price. A customer is not going to understand you getting all high falutin with charging them just to tell them how much the job is going to cost.

Now if you have to due custom design work, and make drawings for their approval, then the customer can see you putting in too much time to give them a freebie.

You lost time and maybe the job waiting to hear which stone they wanted. Well doesn't stone A cost so much a ft and stone be cost so much a ft, then why not give them the price both ways?

Maybe they would of seen the plans sooner then and gone with you. Though that doesn't mean they would of not liked the other guy's design more.
 
Discussion starter · #33 · (Edited)
Now if you have to due custom design work, and make drawings for their approval, then the customer can see you putting in too much time to give them a freebie.

You lost time and maybe the job waiting to hear which stone they wanted. Well doesn't stone A cost so much a ft and stone be cost so much a ft, then why not give them the price both ways?

Maybe they would of seen the plans sooner then and gone with you. Though that doesn't mean they would of not liked the other guy's design more.
1st of all, we're dealing with the public.

A zillion personalities. There is no sound proof way to handle every single person who's backyard you step foot in.

There is no blaming myself by any stretch.

And I am certain this has happened to every veteran contractor here. Whether they know it or not is the thing.

It's just one of those things. Nothin you can do about it.

Its foolish for contractors to be investing time and knowledge on people that turn out to be dead ends. I do it and it's foolish. I've primarily done it to get through the recession. Yet others ARE DOING it as routine operations.

No two households are the same. I had LESS than a 24 hr turn around with a design and proposal. For the scope of the work - thats a damn sweet turn around.

They had a decent budget. Yet, they wanted more than the budget could handle, so it took some effort to work the design to give them everything and still come in at what they had to spend.

Selecting materials is a personal choice just at the clothing we each choose to wear. The Mrs. was not sounding happy with the Mr about the paver he wanted. Made me feel a tad uncomfortable. Couples know how to work things out, And it's better they discuss things when they're not in the presence of strangers.

I am thinking I will do the consultation at no charge. And I will charge for the simpler designs I do inhouse. You don't wanna pay for my time I'm investing in your strangerness to me - no problemo, thats time I can spend cutting our dog's toenails!

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Selecting materials is a personal choice just at the clothing we each choose to wear. The Mrs. was not sounding happy with the Mr about the paver he wanted. Made me feel a tad uncomfortable. Couples know how to work things out, And it's better they discuss things when they're not in the presence of strangers.
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Yep, and if you are just imposing your hardscaping will onto your customers then you run the risk of them being dissatisfied after the project is done.

Sure, I'd love to push one or two different pavers, or wall blocks on every project, but where's the creativity and challenge in that.
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
I'll make suggestions either when asked or when I think a client needs help.

But if I'm in their dining room and their home is decorated beautifully, all decked out with fancy flooring, fancy counter tops, trim, molding, color schemes on the walls, etc - then they probably are capable of selecting their own materials.


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I can appreciate all too well where your coming from, and I honestly don't feel there was much more you could have done in that scenario. I've been there plenty. It reminds me of a couple of times when clients insisted on having their Interior Decorator involved in the process. It just doesn't work, to put it politely.

I haven't charged an initial consultation fee in my 21+ years of doing my own contracting. If it works for some, I can only respect that. For me, my strategy has always been somewhat different. For the record, I've squeezed out competitors because of their up front fees. The only reason I know that, is because it comes out in the consultation process. This is the part of the process where I let my client vent, so to speak. It doesn't mean I agree w/ the client, it just means that for some reason the other contractor "rubbed them wrong" during the most delicate part of the "building trust & credibility" interview. Again, I have no problem w/ those who do it...I just don't feel that it works to my advantage.

I'm not clear on why clients have a problem w/ it, but if I had to guess, I'd say it's mostly the timing part of the contractor. Often times, contractors can be overconfident and do come across as being full of themselves...I've heard that a lot. In other words, they didn't spend enough time somewhere w/ the client, that the client doesn't yet feel ready to make even the smallest of commitments. In the back of their mind there are walls going up because all they heard was $$. In the mean time, the contractor can talk about the project for the next hour, while all along the client is still thinking about that fee/fee's/rate per hour...and not a word registered there after, as to what the contractor was saying.

My point w/ that would be this: If you feel the need to charge a fee, then by all means do it. Just realize, the timing part is a very delicate one. My clients will have a reasonable idea, as to what things cost before I begin the design process. They will have a range, as I don't lock myself in on anything. Their response will dictate where things go from there. If I feel them pulling away from me, then it's time to back up. If that process exhausts itself, I have to decide if it's time to move on.

My final point would be...I wear them down. I measure/gage what direction things are to go, based mostly on there enthusiasm and the comfort level that I feel has been established. I will take as much time as necessary to address their concerns and develop my repore w/ them....comfort level.

I honestly don't know of too many who will go to the length that I will, which makes it that much less difficult to sell. The client, in many cases will not follow through w/ the others, for whatever reasons. All I can say beyond that, is I will be the last guy in the door...even if it means creating a "loose end" to get me there. That can be a revision of the plan, a pic of some material, whatever it takes.

I don't really chase the small stuff so much unless it's practically handed to me, that's where there's usually too much traffic & sifting to do, and quite honestly will give me a headache. I work harder, much harder at the complex projects that would typically cause the client to utilize 2-3 contractors, instead of one.

By the time we are even mid way through my process, the client simply doesn't have the time nor the interest in going through the process again w/ someone else, let alone 2-3 more contractors for the other work that the other companies might not handle. If they did, they would realize that they would risk not getting things done until the following season. Chances are, one won't be happy about it and the other will finally give in and say, "fine lets just do it." By now they are probably sick of the mud that the dog & kids keep tracking into the house. The price is no longer so much of an issue, the only issue is, "when can you start."

Didn't mean to write a book, but that's a watered down version of how things may go in my world. Great discussion and ideas on here otherwise.
 
Consult fees ah maybe on large projects. But design fees hell ya I know what we paid for dyanscape and all the add ons plus the time spent to learn how to use the software the printer to go with it the print charges for full scale blueprints the time to design the project the salary for the designer and time spent to sell the project not to mention changes in the design. It all adds up plus it sets aside the clients who r serious and who r not.
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Also I know alot of guys will say thats why u sell the job to make a profit but if u take the total hrs spent to sell/design the job then subtract them w ur overhead and what u think was ur profit is now this. Just another way to look at it..
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I budget myself as a salesman at the beginning of the year. Doing it that way everyone pays for my proposals. I do some designs for existing customers without prepayment but add it to the proposal. They only get the design if/when they sign.
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