Dead brown patches in St. Augustine

Discussion in 'Turf Renovation' started by mowerman87, Oct 27, 2008.

  1. mowerman87

    mowerman87 LawnSite Member
    Messages: 75

    A once-lush augustine yard has developed dead patches all over a backyard of one of my clients. It happened over the last couple of weeks and the grass has never had this issue before. the front yard is perfect turf. I would like to some suggestions as to what it could be and the best treatments given the time of year. the yard is located in Crowley, Texas which is just south of Fort Worth.
  2. ABeautifulCutAboveInc.

    ABeautifulCutAboveInc. LawnSite Member
    Messages: 118

    Gotta have pics man. Could be a number of things. For starters did you look into the grass and soil? Any visible signs of pests? Did you did down in the soil and check?
  3. ICT Bill

    ICT Bill LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,115

    It sounds like take all patch, it can turn a nice St Augustine lawn to dirt in a week. I am not sure about licensing in Texas as far as fungicides.

    We do have a product, NPP,that will stop it, it melts fungus on contact, but it has no residual and is not registered as a fungicide, it just has an interesting off label effect. It is actually a form of glucosamine and is very safe to use

    We have been doing trials in south carolina with take all patch and brown patch, it stops it right away with new growth in 3 to 4 days, you'll have to use it on as as needed basis though, again no residual

    Contact your local extention agent and ask how you can bring a sample in for identification. It is better to know what you are trying to control than using the shot gun approach
  4. JDUtah

    JDUtah LawnSite Silver Member
    from UT
    Messages: 2,636

    Bill, what tests have you done to find out that NPP had no residual as a fungicide? Last I checked you weren't sure? Why does it have no residual? Solar degradation? Bacterial degradation? Temperature? Obviously the fungi don't eat it? What keeps it from sticking around? Thanks in advance!

    I agree with ABCAI, it could be one of several things, you haven't ruled out bugs yet... pics? Do the coffee pot test?
  5. growingdeeprootsorganicly

    growingdeeprootsorganicly LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 766

    melts fungus on contact huh???? bogus....

    chitosan.. a more water soluble form of chitin.... it helps a plant by tricking the plant to think it's being attacked by an insect or a fungus because they contain chitin in them..ahhhh.. all insects contain chitin in their structure aswell as fungi,

    a plant senses the chitin on it and in response start to strengthen tissue or in some plants they release an enzyme called chitinase that helps dissolve the chitin in the attacking bug....story doesn't end there.. most chitinase enzymes are produced by bacteria to help break down and consume the chitin....... since chitin is a hard material to degrade and is a components of fungi bacteria only produce the enzyme to break it down....that im aware of.

    now if lots of chitin material get in the soil you would think there would be more of these type of bacteria growing in #'s feeding and producing the enzyme chitinase to break it down.....great right??? no... i have herd you and others say it will help kill grubs and root eating nematodes what about all the other benificials in the soil that contain chitin in their structure????? benificial,fungi,nematodes,earth worms ete ete.
    what happens to them since the bacteria are producing more chitinsan enzymes????

    oh wait....... bills says it only affects the bad guys??????????

    melts fungus??? i don't think i have read you say that before??? only the uninformed have said that in the you bill???? come on?

    great... if it helps the plant above surface strengthen it self from disease and insect attack by spraying the foliage awesome! but don't say it melts fungus and doesn't hurt benificals at the same time on the surface and in the soil...
  6. JDUtah

    JDUtah LawnSite Silver Member
    from UT
    Messages: 2,636


    I thought his product was chitinase not chitosan? (Bill chime in?) If it is Chitinase it can melt fungus on contact. After all, that is what the enzyme is excreted by plants and bacteria to do! (Dissolve chitin as a food source) If you harvest chitinase and spray it.. it could give great results... (again Bill chime in... is NPP Chitinase or Chitosan?)

    BTW Bill has used the term hydrolize before.

    Killing all beneficials that utilize chitin in their structure CAN be a problem. That is why I asked about Bill saying there was no residual.. if no residual you can apply a good CT and reintroduce beneficials... the next day even...? Spot spraying should be ok too if horizontal leaching isn't a problem...

    I think a foliar app of chitinase to combat a foliar disease could potentially not affect soil microbes...

    Lol so Bill, two questions...
    Is it Chitinase or Chitosan?
    Why no soil residual? Bio-degredation? Solar? Leaching? Other?
  7. ICT Bill

    ICT Bill LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,115

    Seems like a lot of words are being put into my mouth
    Not us, yet, but there is a very similar product registered with the epa as a fungicide, its effect is by hydrolysing the fungi on contact. This is an off labeled use as we are not registered as a fungicide (pending). The reason there is little to no residual is because it is used as a food by the microbes, it is actually one of the best microbial foods out there. it gets gobbled up quick

    Labeled ingredients include 2.5% chitosan. whether or not other things are in there I will let the label speak for itself. We have, in trials, seen take all patch in St Augustine stopped immediately with new growth in 2 to 3 days. labeled instructions are "use as needed"

    So if used as a foliar with good to great leaf coating it (1 to 2 ounces per 1000) will indeed melt fungi on contact, if it is used at 4 times the foliar rate (4 ounces per 1000) and watered in as a drench so that it gets down into the soil profile it induces chitinase production in chitinylitic bacteria. these types of bacteria are almost always in rhizosphere and not free ranging in soils. If something comes into the rhizosphere (root feeding grub or nematode) while these microbes are producing there toxin they will turn to mush.

    In recent testing with the University of Rhode Island we had 90% control in stunt nematode and 60% control in lance. Lance is a root burrowing nematode, they are very difficult to control once inside the plant. Testing was done on 2 seperate golf courses and on 4 greens each course. We will have results back from the University of Florida soon

    One of the poisons that has been banned (because it was so dangerous) for nematodes, nemacure, only claims 50% reduction
  8. growingdeeprootsorganicly

    growingdeeprootsorganicly LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 766

    gee bill you really did the sales man shuffle on that response???:cool2:
    more reason not to trust you and your products.
    you would get more respect from me if you flew straight and not sideways

    can we see the label on your product??? since it not on your web site like the rest of your products....or do we have to buy it first????

    good rule of thumb don't trust products that will not say or try to hide contents. update to for you....your boy colonel sanders ain't keeping secretes anymore

    i disagree and have alot of questions for you from that response but im not going to waste my time now.... but i have to only ask you this one

    what about the beneficial's?????????? no harm there??????????

    chitinase producing bacteria only in the rhizosphere??? i highly doubt that
  9. ICT Bill

    ICT Bill LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,115

    Charlie, charlie, charlie, your inability to understand and cope is obvious. If you do not want to buy our products, that is completely your decision.

    To bash products you have never used is infantile, to critique results you have never looked at is ridiculous. To say with such vigor that you are better shows your inability to structure and work through issues

    we are confident of our products and stand behind them 100 percent, we get calls everyday on the results of our product and have never had one phone call or email that was negative.

    please keep your negativity and mean demeanor somewhere else, I will now refer to you as "Gerry" from now on

    goodnight Gerry
  10. growingdeeprootsorganicly

    growingdeeprootsorganicly LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 766

    bla bla bla

    you seem to bring it out some how??????????????????

    as usual you don't answer the questions??????

    duck and dive........................salesman

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