I can't answer the ethanol question for you, but I can speak to the deisel vs. gas issue a little.

I have owned a few deisel compact utility tractors in the 21-26 HP range, and one in the 40 HP range(4110,4115,4500 JD's. I still own the 4115), and all of them would/will out torque my comparable gas tractors equipped with identical mowers. (my 4110(21.6 HP) compared to my 445 (22HP) for one example). Not even close. The deisel wins by a noticable margin in thick or weedy grass.

I have never run a deisel ZTR, but I seriously doubt that having a gas engine on a ZTR could somehow make the gas engine superior all of a sudden. My ZTR has a gas engine, but if I had the funds to buy whatever I felt like, I'd buy a deisel without question. They're more fuel efficient too.

Both Deere and Kubota tout their deisels as the way to go for seriously heavy cutting.

 

I've always thought diesels were heavier, giving you a better chance to rut a residential yard in a rainy period. The diesels and fuel injected engines are looking more attractive with the price of gas these days .

 

I am a firm beliver in a gas engine. Diesels are more cost and more headache. On the plus for a diesel engine, they will run for thousands of hours. But so will a properly maintained gas engine.

The only people still buying Diesel mowers are farmers with fuel barrels. Other then that go with a gas engine.

 

The only people still buying Diesel mowers are farmers with fuel barrels. Other then that go with a gas engine.

I disagree with that, lots of people are buying diesel mowers who aren't just farmers with fuel barrels.

My uncle who is the Highway Superintendent for a town up in MA just bought several diesel JD zero turns to maintain the township's sports fields because they last so long, and power through grass when its thick.

Last year I worked for a golf course on grounds crew and we bought a new Ferris diesel Z-turn and got rid of our old Toro gas Z-turn for the same reasons. I no longer work there but I still talk with my old boss and he says that they cut the same areas with the Ferris in half the time they did with the Toro (same deck size just different engines)

I used the Ferris briefly before I stopped working at the golf course last year to mow an area of 7"+ grass that we only cut every month or so (time saving purposes) and the difference was amazing. The Toro barely had enough power to move while cutting the grass but the Ferris just plowed right through it, didn't even slow down.

 

I just bought a used Hustler diesel and sold my Scag Wildcat ! The hustler has a 60" cut and 27 hp Shibaura diesel the Scag had 30 hp Kohler and 61"...
I was a little worried about cut issues with the XR7 deck because the Scag did cut nicely but it HASN'T BEEN an ISSUE. The XR7 cuts nice and at full speed too. I've cut massive amounts of grass that would have stalled the Kohler dead in its tracks even at a crawling ground speed with the diesel and it doesn't slow down... All things considered the diesel Kicks A$$ in the power & torque department. Plus I've mowed the first half of my route this past week and I've only used a half of a tank of diesel fuel as compared to emptying both the tanks on the Scag. I've mowed this route for the past two years with that gas eating pig and it's always sucked both tanks dry! I simply can't believe I have only used about half of one out of the two tanks of fuel on this machine. WOW! Looking forward to see how many hours both tanks can go for...

P.S---- I also own a FERRIS IS3100 and love it for the ride, It has the 26 HP Kawa, I knew it would be a little underpowered in the thick stuff, but thats not what I bought it for...flying over rough soccer fields it's great!

 

I disagree with that, lots of people are buying diesel mowers who aren't just farmers with fuel barrels.

My uncle who is the Highway Superintendent for a town up in MA just bought several diesel JD zero turns to maintain the township's sports fields because they last so long, and power through grass when its thick.

Last year I worked for a golf course on grounds crew and we bought a new Ferris diesel Z-turn and got rid of our old Toro gas Z-turn for the same reasons. I no longer work there but I still talk with my old boss and he says that they cut the same areas with the Ferris in half the time they did with the Toro (same deck size just different engines)

I used the Ferris briefly before I stopped working at the golf course last year to mow an area of 7"+ grass that we only cut every month or so (time saving purposes) and the difference was amazing. The Toro barely had enough power to move while cutting the grass but the Ferris just plowed right through it, didn't even slow down.

Are you comparing apples to oranges?

What was the HP of the old Toro?

What is the HP of the new Ferris?

 

Are you comparing apples to oranges?

What was the HP of the old Toro?

What is the HP of the new Ferris?

The old Toro (only a few years old) had the 27hp Kohler in it if I remember correctly. The Ferris has the 33 hp CAT diesel in it, so 6 hp difference which is significant but the Toro wouldn't even come close to cutting it. The area was on a very gentle slope so you could only cut going downhill, you had to turn off the blades and go back up the hill to cut another path because the Toro just couldn't handle it. The Ferris on the other hand had plenty of power going back up the hill. For what we used it for the Toro was a joke.

 

The old Toro (only a few years old) had the 27hp Kohler in it if I remember correctly. The Ferris has the 33 hp CAT diesel in it, so 6 hp difference which is significant but the Toro wouldn't even come close to cutting it. The area was on a very gentle slope so you could only cut going downhill, you had to turn off the blades and go back up the hill to cut another path because the Toro just couldn't handle it. The Ferris on the other hand had plenty of power going back up the hill. For what we used it for the Toro was a joke.

You are comparing a ~750cc gas engine to a 1500cc diesel.

 

If cost isn't an issue as the 1st post said there is no reason to not buy the diesel what so ever. I have 7 mowers, 2 gas and 5 diesel and the diesel wins hands down in ever dept. It has more torque, cuts thicker grass better, gets better mpg and is smoother. The only posible downside would be the fact that the diesel engine weighs about 150 lbs more, and i know as some people have said " on a wet lawn that makes a difference" I disagree. If your cutting a wet lawn any zero turn is going to leave ruts. And the diesel isnt more headahce or maintenance. It goes longer between oil changes and never breaks down for me personally. I have 3 john Deere 997 diesels, 2 Hustler diesels and two Wright brand gas stand ons. My oldest diesel has 1300 hrs on it my oldest gas engine has 1300 hours on it and Ive spent a good amount of money on repairs for the gas engine, and none on the diesel.

 

If cost isn't an issue as the 1st post said there is no reason to not buy the diesel what so ever. I have 7 mowers, 2 gas and 5 diesel and the diesel wins hands down in ever dept. It has more torque, cuts thicker grass better, gets better mpg and is smoother. The only posible downside would be the fact that the diesel engine weighs about 150 lbs more, and i know as some people have said " on a wet lawn that makes a difference" I disagree. If your cutting a wet lawn any zero turn is going to leave ruts. And the diesel isnt more headahce or maintenance. It goes longer between oil changes and never breaks down for me personally. I have 3 john Deere 997 diesels, 2 Hustler diesels and two Wright brand gas stand ons. My oldest diesel has 1300 hrs on it my oldest gas engine has 1300 hours on it and Ive spent a good amount of money on repairs for the gas engine, and none on the diesel.

Got some friends one bought a 997 and the other bought a TT. And the 997 ruts worse than the TT. And my TT ruts worse than my TC, I just think the diesels are over kill for most lawns.

 

I would consider a diesel on a 72". Nothing smaller. Even the 72 would be border line/on the fence. Some of those smaller diesels out there actually cant compete with the big 30+ hp gassers. No experience to back that up, just what I have heard.

 

One could argue that the diesel is over kill, I personally always say its better to have some extra or reserve power than to run at max all the time.

On the smaller diesels like my 2 hustlers it has 25 hp and it does a great job for small lawns. It has plenty of power, its a smaller machine and cuts better than my gas mowers.

 

I would consider a diesel on a 72". Nothing smaller. Even the 72 would be border line/on the fence. Some of those smaller diesels out there actually cant compete with the big 30+ hp gassers. No experience to back that up, just what I have heard.

Odd to give an opinion if you don't have experience... To say "Some of those smaller diesels out there actually cant compete with the big 30+ hp gassers."
While some might be true, my own experience we added a 25hp kubota diesel in a TT and have found our fuel usage savings of over 1 gal. per hour and power is equal if not better than our 30hp. + gas motors.

Minus the weight issue, the change over to diesel is well worth it!
That's my opinion with field data to back up my reasons!

 

First off, find a new small engine guy. I wouldn't let this guy work on a tricycle. What an idiot.

If money isn't an object, go with the diesel, you'll be thrilled that you did.

Can't answer the ethanol questions.

I would consider a diesel on a 72". Nothing smaller. Even the 72 would be border line/on the fence. Some of those smaller diesels out there actually cant compete with the big 30+ hp gassers. No experience to back that up, just what I have heard.

Have you ever run a 72"?

Or a diesel?

Can't compete? On fuel usage, true enough, you'll be going through gas much quicker on a 30+ HP gas than a diesel. And be able to cut more grass, and taller\thicker.

As an aside, you might either want to listen to other people or just stop listening.

Odd to give an opinion if you don't have experience... To say "Some of those smaller diesels out there actually cant compete with the big 30+ hp gassers."
While some might be true, my own experience we added a 25hp kubota diesel in a TT and have found our fuel usage savings of over 1 gal. per hour and power is equal if not better than our 30hp. + gas motors.

Minus the weight issue, the change over to diesel is well worth it!
That's my opinion with field data to back up my reasons!

P-shaw, field data? My brother's uncle's cousin's sister's niece's nephew's grandma said gas was better.

I can't give actual gallons, but close. First Lazer we bought was a liquid cooled. On a long day or a lot of grass, we'd have to switch tanks sometime in the afternoon and use about half the second tank. Got an air-cooled for a demo once and ran out before noon on the first tank. The diesels I have now (Daihatsu crap) will run one tank dry a couple times a year. Barely.

If I could get diesels on my WB's I would.

Normal maintenance is no different than a gasser. Long term--on my Daihatsu's--I was screwed. They are crap, which explains why Exmark doesn't use them anymore. Still wouldn't keep me from buying another diesel Z.

 

I didn't say he was MY small engine guy. It was a small engine shop I came across in my travels trying to find a dealer who has a Ferris 2500 on the floor.

Concensus here is that a bigger gas engine does not outperform a diesel engine and the torque comment is bovine scat.

Someone in this thread mentioned they had a fuel injected gas engines? Which brands are using fuel injection? Will the fuel injection reduce some of the fuel issues that are caused by ethanol?
Are the engines in commercial mowers big enough that they really aren't having much issue with ethanol. Or is it the trimmers, saws and older boat motors the ones having the ethanol problems.

I have a JD 737 and have had problems with the 24hp Kawi on it. JD service tells me that some of the engine issues that mower is having are related to ethanol. I think its also related to bad design too.

 

Odd to give an opinion if you don't have experience... To say "Some of those smaller diesels out there actually cant compete with the big 30+ hp gassers."
While some might be true, my own experience we added a 25hp kubota diesel in a TT and have found our fuel usage savings of over 1 gal. per hour and power is equal if not better than our 30hp. + gas motors.

Minus the weight issue, the change over to diesel is well worth it!
That's my opinion with field data to back up my reasons!

uh that would be the reason for the second sentence. Can you read?

 

uh that would be the reason for the second sentence. Can you read?

No, but he can hear.

 

Huge Diesel Fan here. Even if it were just because they sound so much cooler when you first start them up.

The biggest plus for the diesel's isn't so much that it makes more torque, but that their torque curve is much flatter. If you always run your gas engine at full throttle and never lose any RPM's, then the diesel won't benefit you much from a power point of view, but it will save you a LOT of gas. Partly because they burn less at WOT, but also because you won't have to run WOT all the time. You'll have plenty of power at 70%.

If you're running more than 30 gallons of gas through your mower a week, and a diesel will take 15 gallons, how long does it take for a more durable engine that's saving you $250 a month in gas to pay for itself? Probably not long in Florida, but might be a while in Vermont with the shorter mowing season.

Todd

 

i run gas & diesel. 25 kaw over 1 gal per hour likes gas
26 efi kohler 1 gal per hour
26 kubota diesel .63 gal per hour 9.5 gal into 15 hrs
bx 26 kubota tractor .52 gal per hr 3.4 gal into 6.5 hrs
this tractor was a rental for sat , moving topsoil & digging up stumps, has the
same 26 hp diesel as my zd326. amazed at the fuel mileage. most of the time
we run off road diesel @ 20 cents a gal cheaper than regular diesel

 

I have gassers and I have a diesel. My diesel is a JD 997 w/72" deck. The 997 burns 1/4-1/3 a gallon per hour. I had a 850a with a 72" before the 997 and the 31hp Kawasaki burned almost 2 gallons per hour. The extra cost of the diesel will pay for itself quickly with todays gas and fuel prices. I don't see how you guys who run these big block gassers can justify them over long term with todays fuel prices. Diesel is a better option today. I need to replace my 757's next year, i'm hoping Deere comes out with a smaller diesel in a small frame ztr, you listening Deere? BTW, i didn't buy a diesel for horsepower or torque. I bought it for fuel savings and longitivity.

 

Sounds like your small engine guy does not like to work on diesels. Diesel motor will out torque the gas one all day.

 

I ran a ferris with the 3 cylinder 31 0r 33hp cat diesel is 5100. It was a useless piece of crap. Blade tip speed would drop just from from driving the machine. When cutting it would only mow at half speed if that in heavy grass. I loved the ride but the machine was way under powered. It needs a turbo in my opinion. I would like to try the Dixie Chopper or Bad boy as they use a 4 cylinder cat engine. I just dont understand why they are not putting turbos on these small diesel engines?

My z 970 with 37 hp gets 1.8gph but it cuts twice as fast as that ferris plus I paying a guy twice the labor if I buy a diesel. Dixie Chopper had a turbo Diesel that was 50hp but that mower was out dated.

 

I ran a ferris with the 3 cylinder 31 0r 33hp cat diesel is 5100. It was a useless piece of crap. Blade tip speed would drop just from from driving the machine. When cutting it would only mow at half speed if that in heavy grass. I loved the ride but the machine was way under powered. It needs a turbo in my opinion. I would like to try the Dixie Chopper or Bad boy as they use a 4 cylinder cat engine. I just dont understand why they are not putting turbos on these small diesel engines?

My z 970 with 37 hp gets 1.8gph but it cuts twice as fast as that ferris plus I paying a guy twice the labor if I buy a diesel. Dixie Chopper had a turbo Diesel that was 50hp but that mower was out dated.

They do, Kubota has a couple models in Toros that have turbos.

IIRC, that is the same model Ferris I demoed and it had plenty of power as well as the great ride. Just didn't like the cut quality.

 

Ok to add another monkey in the barrel right now lets throw another problem into the mix. Right now where I live diesel is $4.39 a gallon. Now couple that to the added cost of the machine and is having the diesel ZTR really more efficient or better right now in todays market? I take into consideration what type of use these machines would work in, heavy commercial or industrial and all I here about on here is how cheap that area of work is going for now. Normally in better times with cheaper fuel prices this is how these other company's could afford to bid these larger properties so cheap. Right now I don't see any added benefit of the diesel and the weight of one around here would rut something fierce. Does anyone know what a 2011 Toro 590D in a 60" or 72" goes for now? I remember they were close to 17K or 18K before and no one around here knows anything about Daihatsu engines. Anyone run one?

 

Ok to add another monkey in the barrel right now lets throw another problem into the mix. Right now where I live diesel is $4.39 a gallon. Now couple that to the added cost of the machine and is having the diesel ZTR really more efficient or better right now in todays market? I take into consideration what type of use these machines would work in, heavy commercial or industrial and all I here about on here is how cheap that area of work is going for now. Normally in better times with cheaper fuel prices this is how these other company's could afford to bid these larger properties so cheap. Right now I don't see any added benefit of the diesel and the weight of one around here would rut something fierce. Does anyone know what a 2011 Toro 590D in a 60" or 72" goes for now? I remember they were close to 17K or 18K before and no one around here knows anything about Daihatsu engines. Anyone run one?

Doesn't matter, run from the Daihatsu's as fast and as far as you can. They are the biggest POS engine's I have ever had the displeasure and expense of owning.

Worse than a Ford 6.0, and I have 3 of those.

Guaranteed within 1500 hours they will need a rebuild. Either the head will crack or oil consumption will be through the roof.

There's a reason Exmark stopped using these boat anchors and bit the bullet and are using Kubotas now.