Dump Insert for my 03 GMC 2500HD Pickup- and towing a 18' Enclosed Trailer?

Discussion in 'Trucks and Trailers' started by mkwl, Jan 9, 2013.

  1. mkwl

    mkwl LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,700

    Hey Guys-

    I'm starting to gear up for spring, and I'm debating between buying a new (not brand new, but less than 5 years old or so) small dump truck (either a GMC 3500HD or Ford Superduty (450 or 550), and just getting a steel bri-mar dump insert for my already paid for '03 GMC 2500HD pickup.

    I already have a dump trailer for hauling "bulk" materials like mulch, larger quantities of topsoil, etc. However, I'd like to have a truck to haul around my new 8x18' Enclosed 10,000GVWR landscape trailer, and have the ability to throw clippings in the bed, a little mulch, leaves (build a leaf box for it), etc.

    So I guess my question is- am I pushing my luck too far to expect my 10 year old 95,000 hard miles 2500HD pickup to haul around a dump insert and a 10,000Lb trailer on a daily basis? It's equipped with the 6.0L Gas engine and auto trans- hauls my other lighter trailers alright- not gonna win any races but it does alright. What are your thoughts? Pushing the old truck too far, or will it do alright until I can really justify a small dump truck?

    Also- opinions on the bri-mar inserts? I can pick up a steel 8' unit like new for $1,500- good deal?

  2. caseysmowing

    caseysmowing LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,137

    1500 for the insert is a good price you should have bought it yesterday. Everything else seems like a lot of weight for everyday hauling if the trailer is full but I'm no expert on hauling.
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  3. KS_Grasscutter

    KS_Grasscutter LawnSite Gold Member
    Messages: 3,338

    I'd keep the 3/4 ton and sell the dump trailer in favor of a 1 ton dump. And the way I understand the laws, a 10k trailer and some one tons get you over 26k gvwr so you may need a CDL. If your trailer has 5200 lb axles you need a truck with a GVWR of less than 15600.
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  4. Duffster

    Duffster LawnSite Bronze Member
    from Midwest
    Messages: 1,197

    10k trialer + dually will never need a CDL unless hauling hazmat.

    Axle rating means nothing here.
  5. KS_Grasscutter

    KS_Grasscutter LawnSite Gold Member
    Messages: 3,338

    Where is "here"?

    I have been told by various trailer dealers and state troopers that in Kansas axle rating determines trailer gvwr. So two 5200lb axles is 10,400lbs. Now lets assume you have an F450 with a GVWR of 16,000. You're now at 26,400lbs. And according to the flow chart you posted in another thread, that DOES require a Class A CDL.

    Now lets say where you're located, you can derate a trailer to 9900lbs. You can pull it with a truck up to 25,999 lbs (or 26,000, dont recall if the cutoff is 26k or 26,001). Your combined GVWR would be 35,900, and you would need nothing more than a standard drivers license.
  6. Woodman1

    Woodman1 LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 333

    I think what Duffster was saying is "here" in the law not here in that state. Almost all motor carrier laws are federal mandates so they are pretty much the same from state to state.

    Gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) is defined in South Carolina Code of Law, Section 56-1-2030, item 16 as the weight or the value specified by the manufacturer as the maximum loaded weight of a single or a combination vehicle. The gross vehicle weight rating of a combination vehicle (commonly referred to as the "gross combination weight rating") is the gross vehicle weight rating of the power unit plus the gross vehicle weight rating of a towed unit.

    In a nutshell - the axle rating is not how GVWR is determined.
  7. Woodman1

    Woodman1 LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 333

    I am quoting an article by Shane Zepplin of Towmaster here. I think this does a pretty good job of breaking it down. I hope that it helps.

    John was on his way to the jobsite. He had just purchased a new skid-steer loader, and this was going to be his first job with the new equipment. The research he did online helped him determine that this particular model would allow him to finish a job 25 percent faster than his old model. This meant he could earn more money, which justified the purchase of the skid-steer loader and the new trailer. Little did he know that what he planned to save in efficiency, he spent on the Department of Transportation (DOT) ticket for being overweight on his gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR).

    This is a common occurrence these days as more states are looking for revenue to subsidize their budgets. GVWR laws are not new—authorities have just been lax about enforcing them in the past. They are now enforcing the laws, not only for revenue but for safety reasons and to prevent wear-and-tear on the highways, which also saves taxpayer’s money.

    John received his ticket because he did not understand GVWR, which is the case for many contractors. Even manufacturers have different interpretations of GVWR because the government leaves it up to each manufacturer to rate its trailers as they see fit. The bottom line: Whatever the tag on the trailer says for GVWR better be higher than what the scale reads.

    John’s new skid loader with the attachment weighed 9,700 pounds, so he thought his trailer, with a 9,990-pound GVWR, was sufficient. However, he did not consider the trailer’s weight (or any attachments on his skid loader). Even though his state recognizes tongue transfer, the most he could transfer to his tow vehicle was 1,200 pounds. With the trailer weighing in at 2,600 pounds, his total weight was 11,100. He was over by 1,110 pounds.

    John cannot be blamed 100 percent because his dealer should have explained GVWR and asked John some pertinent questions about his tow vehicle. The dealer also should have known the weight of the skid-steer loader and attachment.

    Trailer GVWR is the amount of weight the vehicle can carry. Some manufacturers rate the GVWR at the lowest component rating, while others include the trailer’s weight on top of the trailer capacity. If you have a trailer that weighs 2,600 pounds, that weight must be included in the capacity formula to stay under the GVWR. You also must consider the addition of accessories, such as pallet fork holders, a heavier parking jack, winch and battery and other items. Plus, you have to add the weight of any attachments you haul along with your skid loader. Even adding a planer or grapple bucket can put you over the limit.

    Manufacturers have leeway in determining the GVWR of their trailers. One method is by taking the lowest component rating and calling that the GVWR. In most cases, that would be the axle or tire rating. In other cases, that would be the hub and wheel rating. Either way, the GVWR is determined at the axle. With this method, if your axle rating is 6,000 pounds per axle, and you have two axles, your GVWR would be 12,000 pounds.

    Other manufacturers take that rating and add the trailer’s weight into the GVWR. If the capacity is rated at 12,000 pounds (determined by the axle capacities), and the trailer weighs 2,600 pounds, they would rate their trailer at 14,600 GVWR.

    In the first case, the capacity rating of that trailer is determined by subtracting the weight of the trailer from the GVWR of 12,000 pounds. If the trailer weighs 2,600 pounds, then the payload capacity of that model is 9,400 pounds.

    In the second case, the trailer’s weight is already in the GVWR, so the payload capacity of that trailer is 12,000 pounds. This sounds simple enough, but it actually is not. While the GVWR is rated at 14,600 pounds, the GAWR or Gross Axle Weight Rating is still only 12,000 pounds and you cannot exceed that capacity rating. In this case, you still have to include the 2,600-pound trailer weight. That weight must be transferred to the tow vehicle, but that transfer is also limited by the hitch capacity. If the hitch is only rated at 1,200 pounds, you cannot transfer the entire weight of the trailer to the tow vehicle. This reduces your payload capacity by the difference of 1,400 pounds, so the actual capacity would be 10,600 pounds. This is still higher than the 9,400 pounds in the first example but can throw you off when you are calculating the payload capacity.

    This can be confusing to both dealers and consumers and, quite frankly, to DOT officers and even some state legislators. Like any law, it is open to interpretation. The best thing to do is first check your state’s DOT laws to see how the GVWR and capacity ratings are interpreted, and also check the CDL requirements. Next, determine the weight of everything you plan to haul on a trailer—equipment plus attachments, accessories and options. Then, look for a trailer with a GVWR higher than the weight of everything you will be hauling. If your state recognizes weight transfer to the tow vehicle, you can take that into consideration, but if your state does not, then make sure the trailer you purchase or use has enough GVWR or, in some cases, GAWR to haul your equipment.

    Crunching Numbers
    Use these formulas to determine your GAWR and GVWR:

    GAWR = sum of all tire capacities, or the sum of all axle capacities

    This formula is considered the GVWR on some manufacturer’s trailers. But other manufactures might use this formula for GVWR:

    GVWR = Trailer Capacity + Trailer Weight

    Payload capacity is then determined by one of these two formulas:

    GVWR – Trailer Weight = Payload Capacity
  8. KS_Grasscutter

    KS_Grasscutter LawnSite Gold Member
    Messages: 3,338

    This is what I was referring to.
  9. Duffster

    Duffster LawnSite Bronze Member
    from Midwest
    Messages: 1,197

    Here. The United States of America. You know. The USA.-

    Whoever told you that is a faulking flaming idiot.

    A trailer with 2 5.2k axles could be rated for 10.4k but then that ain't a 10k trailer is it. :hammerhead:

    No kidding. :rolleyes:

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