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Discussion in 'Organic Lawn Care' started by mrkosar, Mar 1, 2006.

  1. muddstopper

    muddstopper LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,341

    Why do you two get in a peeing contest on every subject that is posted?

    Try posting factual information from reliable sources instead of trying to prove that one or the other is dummer than a box a rocks and we all might learn something.
  2. NattyLawn

    NattyLawn LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,643

    I'm not trying to get into a "peeing contest" with anyone...Some of Nocuttings posts are tough to follow sometimes, and I wanted clarification. If it seems like I'm busting someones balls, I'm not trying to. If my questions give us clearer answers (to me anyway), it's so ALL OF US CAN LEARN SOMETHING......
  3. livingsoils

    livingsoils LawnSite Member
    Messages: 97

    I have used both types of teas and they both work well :dancing: . My thoughts on teas are that non-aerated teas work well in delivering nutrients to the plants while the aerate teas are excellent breeding grounds for microbes. I think they both have their place in the lawn care business.
    I would also agree that tea brewing companies are taking advantage of the new wave in the "organic" industry. They are here to make money, why else would they try to sell you a little bag of their "special blend" for $30 for their tea brewer. Teas have been used for 100's of years without aeration with great success. :) Now tea brewing companies tell us that you need to have specific air pressure going into the brewer to take the microbes off the side of the brewer, and if you use any old air pump you will kill the microbes and even brew "bad ones" that could kill your plant! That is why you should buy ours because we have put millions of $ into researching acceptable air pressure and other trade secrets. :nono:
    I think cleanliness is key to a good brew. I have seen many brewers that probably have never been cleaned since the day they have been out of the box, that is where you get your "bad ones," not from air pressure.
    As for the soil food web. I think they are the pioneers in teas and they have done a lot of research in the tea industry. You can't just refute their work because you don't like them. I don't necessarily agree with everything they say, but you have to give them some recognition. :clapping:

    Mike :drinkup:
  4. muddstopper

    muddstopper LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,341

    There are benefitual anaerobic microbs as well as arobic microbes, (yea I know my spelling sucks), It depends on what effect you want with your teas.

    Teas can be a good source of nutrients and microbs but they dont add organic matter to the soil. Tests have shown that teas made from manures will provide plenty of nutrients and microbs, but that organic matter in the soil doesnot change significantly unless the whole manure is applied to the soil. Good or Bad? This depends on the organic content in the soil that the applications are being made to. If you have good organic matter percentages in the soil , yet the microbes have been killed off due to chemical applications, then teas would be the way to go. On the other hand, if your soil is low in organic matter, then teas might provide a quick boost to the soils microbiology, but without the organic material the boost will be short lived. In these cases of low organic matter, you would be better off applying the complete composted material instead of just the tea. You get the same microbes either way.

    I dont know this for sure, but I feel the reason you get so many different opinions on the teas and their effectiveness is simply because of the organic matter contained in the soils they are being applied to. If you have good organic matter, and it hasnt been harmed by heavy chemical applications, chances are that you already have a pretty good population of soil microbes. In cases like that, the results would seem great simply because you are suppling nutrients for the already present microbes to feed on. In soils with damaged organic material, the teas will supply missing microbes and the results would also be pretty good. . On soils with low or no organic material, the teas would supply microbes that would provide a quick greening up of the plants, but without the organic matter the results could/would only be temporary at best.
  5. livingsoils

    livingsoils LawnSite Member
    Messages: 97

    Exactly! that is my point, both types of teas DO work! But if you listen to Tea brewer companies they will tell you the opposite, you can only use aerated teas to have benefits. That is totally false! But people listen to the tea companies.

  6. NattyLawn

    NattyLawn LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,643

    I did a search on the net for unaerated tea and nothing comes up. Most point you to the Soil Food Web where Dr. Ingham says unaerated tea has too much anaerobic bacteria that's not benefical, but harmful to the soil and plants. I do know there is some benefical anaerobic bacteria.

    Mudd...Now, if you have a customer on a 4 or 5 step organic fertilizer program, and add tea apps as a supplement, would this be sufficient in building enough organic matter for microbe survival?
  7. dKoester

    dKoester LawnSite Gold Member
    Messages: 3,341

    A large population of worms can encourage moles to come to the lawn.
  8. livingsoils

    livingsoils LawnSite Member
    Messages: 97

    Rodale institute has been the leader in composting and using teas in trials for years. They recommend both types of teas. They have found that the ingredients and cleanliness are what breeds bad microbes not the way the tea is brewed. They have found both "passive" and aerated teas give good results.
    As I said earlier passive teas work well in delivering nutrients to the plants because it it is in a water soluble form and the plants can immediately use it. The nutrients are extracted from the compost using the passive method. We (mankind) have been using passive teas since the start of farming and have had good results. I personally use both types of teas but wanted to make sure passive teas don't get a bad wrap.
    I would recommend going to Rodale and looking around and visiting the book store they have great books to get info from. The Rodale Guide to Composting is a great book.
  9. muddstopper

    muddstopper LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,341

    I think that would depend on the organic fertilizer. I assume you are talking about the CGM, Alfalfa, etc. The microbes need the organic material to feed on and if you are adding organic matter and teas, unless something is wrong with the materials you are using you should have pretty good results.

    I have mentioned this before, but your organic materials are only as good as the soil they came from. If the soil the organics where grown on had certain nutrient deficiencies, then the organic plant material that came from that soil will be deficent in those same nutrients. For every nutrient that is deficient in the soil, there will be another nutrient that there is to much of.
  10. muddstopper

    muddstopper LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,341

    Table 1 Nutrient concentrations in municipal leaves (dry weight basis).
    Nutrient- Minimum- Maximum -Average -Average-Concentration %-Lb.ton

    Carbon 36 52 47 940

    Nitrogen 0.66 1.62 1.00 20.0

    Phosphorous (P2O5) 0.02 (0.05) 0.29 (0.66) 0.1 (0.23)
    2.0 (4.6)
    Potassium (K2O) 0.09 (0.11) 0.88 (1.06) 0.38 (0.46)
    7.6 (9.1)
    Calcium 0.13 3.04 1.64 32.8

    Magnesium 0.02 0.46 0.24 4.8

    Sulfur 0.01 0.21 0.11 2.2

    Nutrient Parts per million Lb/ton

    Boron 7 72 38 0.076

    Iron 46 9800 1461 2.922

    Manganese 19 1845 550 1.100

    Zinc 22 392 81 0.162

    Sodium 36 325 110 0.220

    Chlorine 68 3995 1264 2.528

    Copper 2.8 31.5 8.1 0.016

    Cobalt 0.9 10.9 2.7 0.005

    Nickel 1.1 57.9 5.3 0.0106

    Durn chart dont want to paste right

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