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Discussion in 'Organic Lawn Care' started by GroundKprs, Jan 25, 2005.
naw..must be the wind chill...my brain is going numb.
I knew it was too good to be true!
Maybe you shoud go back and re-read my post and re-read t2bo's post again. The organics are being properly labled in the US as well as Canada. The problem is that everyone is looking for a cheaper product. In a lot of cases the same feed that is bought for cattle is the same material that is being labled. The high price of the label is the only difference it the two products. That is why they are looking at cattle feed and such to use for pest control. When using feeds they probably wouldnt be legal but using the labeled organics they would be. Why dont you try calling the phone number that is listed in the other thread and ask them.
And the way you replied to my post is exactly the reason why the organic commerial people are not posting at this site. So put yours back in your pants.
Most of the thoughts above about cheap and different labeling is again just doublespeak to cloud the issues.
But, I'll try to ask this simply and non-confrontationally. Please name the USA organic pesticides that are registered and labeled like the ones in Canada mentioned by T2BO. He was not discussing exempt items, but organic items duly researched and registered as pesticides. Note he has to use certain brands that have gone thru the approval process, if he is using them as herbicides.
Just name them. Don't need a bunch of verbiage, excuses, explanations or arguement. Just names of registered organic products.
You got me thinkin' here...
THe way to operate legally ,and100%organically would be as i suggested, basic cultural practices.
So the program would go something like this....topdressing(with compost.. cant get much more' 'organic'than that) and overseeding, aerating,mulch mowing, proper watering, and amending the soil(aka 'fertilizing'). Simply eliminate 'chemicals' from the equation.
I wonder too if a rural market would be more tolerant of not having the 'perfect' weed free lawn, than an urban or commercial situation.
oh yeah and for the extreme organut customers.. only push reel mowers...no power equipment allowed...
Ill be honest, i havnt read every word. Just a quick point, it is very complicated but the organic pesticides I mentioned are on the provincial exempted list. I can never get into it enough to care to prove stuff, Ill just tell you what I know. (no way im going through the 3 levels of Canadian govt websites to dig out the various pieces of legislation)
So what does that mean? The Canadian govt had tried to respond to the fact that many large cities in Canada have banned pesticides. (technically its restricted cosmetic use but lets not get technical, for our purposes its a ban) The have fast tracked registraion of "alternatives" and put these alternatives on exempted lists so we can use them without a licence. Legally, as part of a service or business.
Now, as noted above, its not a free for all. All the products I use have to be registered, even the organic fert I use (Sustain is one) has to have the analysis on it and be a product manufactured and sold as a lawn fertilizer. Its just standard stuff to keep people from b.s'ing folks. Otherwise I could go to the feed store and use rabit food as once suggested on this site. (its alfalpha but all sorts of additives could be in it)
I now have a licence and operate an IPM company. I could however, and may in the future operate and organic lawn care company without a pesticide applicators licence using. Ecoclear (non-selective broadleaf) Topgun (same but fatty acid not vinegar) Turfmaize (corn gluten meal, organic weed and feed). Thats pretty much it for legal, registered, no lincence req. pesticides for turf.
quick edit, of course I dont use non-selectives in turf. I tried using a weed stick and brushing it on the leaf only but it still killed a yellow spot of grass around the weed and looked bad.
a 25b product has to be "labeled as to its use" and registered with the particular state as to its use!
a jar of sesame oil would not be labeled and registered as a pesticide,,,,so for a licensed applicator you would be illegally using a product for a pesticide use!
just because the epa doesnt make a company register a particular prduct because it has deemed it as not worthy/needed of their efforts,,,,,you still have to meet requirements as outlined by them and the state for that product to qualify for use by professionals!
i get a big kick out of these arguments.
the problem with the organic alternative is better, is that some of the most poisonous chemicals are organic.
vinigar was one example used above. it is merely acetic acid.
why not just get some acetic acid, or hydrochloric acid for that matter . it will be alot cheaper.
also use any acit on hardscapes for a while and you'll have discoloration in those areas .
here's a quote from the MSDS of acetic acid
"This material is strongly corrosive and causes serious burns. Very harmful if swallowed. Lachrymator."
it is more harmful than roundup.
Pyrethrin and rotenone come to mind, not to forget nicotine
Spreading organics such as manure in some places is coming under regulation because of water quality concerns and should be.
Then again what is organic about manure from livestock fed hormones and genetically manipulated materials?