fertilizer questions

Discussion in 'Fertilizer Application' started by formerscrub, Dec 28, 2001.

  1. bruces

    bruces LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 648


    I follow you logic and appreciate the info, but I'm confused on one thing.

    What does the 6.8 represent in the last line?

    I see that the average cost 35.23 X 6.8 = revenue charged.

    It appears that the cost of product is 14.68% here (35.23/240)

    Am I reading this correctly?
  2. Nebraska

    Nebraska LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 525

  3. HBFOXJr

    HBFOXJr LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,712

    I use it. At proper rates, it has post emergent effects oon young crabgrass there by enlarging your application window. Also reduces some broadleaf weeds and good residual.
  4. Nebraska

    Nebraska LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 525

    HB...out here we are doing two apps of Pre-M....is this something to consider instead of 2 Pre-m...?

    Interesting about the post emergence...

    How much more control of Crabgrass compared to Pre-M?

    How much more control of broadleaf?

    Last year our lesco dealer steered us away saying it was an older product? Not as effective?
  5. tremor

    tremor LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,476

    The number represents nothing at all. Just that $40 is the low end of average in this area (4,000 sq ft) & if we calculate price on a cost vs price charged basis, we come up with a number that has little to no value. The real price LCO's should charge is tied to ALL their OH expenses, market demographics, & desired profit margins. Figures we don't have the luxury of access to for the example. The exercise does demonstrate how to caculate chemical costs for a season minus eqipment, seed, misc other herb's, rent, labor, administrative expenses, insurance, fuel, maint, depreciation, benefits,etc,etc,etc....

  6. HBFOXJr

    HBFOXJr LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,712

    Supposedly tests show dimension a few points better on control than others. I'm making a major change this year in going to a heavy single application. I don't like all the SCU on my lawns. Other slow release souces of N. although more expensive give better color.

    I'm gonna use the highest concentration available and apply the max suggested dose. It will be on a mini prill so I'll also have excellent particle density. I haven't been satisfied with split apps of large particles.

    I'll make up the cost difference on other apps. I think I can get by with a smaller quantity of high quality, slow release N. Should give me excellent crab and weed control plus better color and more even growth at no or low price change. I've had excellent looking lawns Sept through early May but they fade in color in the summer. Some of it is turf type and variety but some of it is the SCU feedings.
  7. Nebraska

    Nebraska LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 525


    We have 95% Bluegrass out here that goes dormant from November to March/April. Where they say go with Pre-M then another Pre-M app 6 weeks later....Seems like a lot of chemical being put down? Which makes for a lot of orange footwear.
  8. tremor

    tremor LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,476

    All the Pre's last for 6-12 weeks in the real world. Balan (benefin) on the short end, Pendimethalin, Barricade, & Dimension on the long end. Team about in the middle. Some perform a little better on Broadleaf weeds than others. Rate adjustments are capable of extending the control window to the maximum, but won't allways get you out of the woods. No matter what product is used, if it is applied on April 1st & lasts for 12 weeks (pipe dream?), then it's all but gone on July 1st. That's all there is to it. Co a mid- June reinforcing application will cover your butt for the rest of the season. If irrigation or summer rains occurr in July, Crabgrass will get pretty big & ugly bu September 1st. Last year was more dramatic than usual because it didn't rain enough in April to move the product into the soil where it could work. If last years Crabs were allowed to go to seed. Then this will be a heck of a good year to test the capability of any herbicide. There's going to be that many more seeds waiting for their chance in the sun.

    Don't worry so much about which Pre to use. I sell TeamPro, Pre-M, & Dimension, but offer Dimension on Mini sized prills as my preferred item. Concentrate on spreading it evenly (a little heavier on the edges), getting it watered in, & reinforcing that treatment in 6 weeks in high pressure areas regardless of which product used. They all work well when applied properly & on time then watered in. Rain needs to happen within a few days of application or ALL pre's begin to volatalize (gas off). Once they do, that's it, poor results regardles of selection, rate, or timing.

    Prill size helps when applying lower amounts of product/M. At 4lbs product/M, all the common Pre's are being delivered at adequate particles per sq ft. (By common I mean: .86 Pendimethalin or .07-.10 Dimension. Both 1.31% Pend. & .15-.21 Dimension may be required in some agronomic zones) But more particles is better no matter what. So higher lbs/M (say a 13%N @ 5lbs/M for .65lbs/N or a 19%N @ 1lb/N) or smaller particles are helpful. Both Dimension & Pre-M or readily available on Mini or Golf Fairway sized prills. Team, TeamPro, & Barricade are probably made this way too. Ask the supplier.

    I often recommend a straight Pre, such as 0-0-7 with .1% Dimension (which is a Mini Prill) for the historically Crabby lawns & all lawn edges. This way, you can use any fertilizer or fert/combo needed & discreetly use the Pre only where required. Or apply no fert at all on the non-irrigated or low input properties. Often times the fert analysis that come with Pre-Fert combos isn't agronomically appropriate for summer use. Vendors often run out of Pre's by June if they know what they're doing too. So the 0-0-7 approach is desirable in many situations.

    Nitrogen, Sulfur, & Iron all make turf greener. But the TYPE of slow-release Nitrogen will only impact release rates, not the degree of green. I sell an awsome custom for summer use:
    20-3-20 75% PolySCU + 5% Iron. The color is crazy with all the N,S,&Fe. The release rate is awesome considering the cost of the Nutralene & Amino Urea Formaldehyde blends that we offer as alternatives.
    For the best color from Iron, try to keep the N-Fe ratio in the 4-1 area.

    Hope this helps.

  9. Nebraska

    Nebraska LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 525

    Thanks for the information...

    Is the dimension more expensive?

    Do you have a link to an independent study that shows the difference in results?
  10. tremor

    tremor LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,476

    Dimension (dithiopyr) is no more than a buck a bag more. Pre-M, Weed Grass Contol, or Pendulum (pendimethalin) has been the bench-mark standard by which all others are judged for many years & is a little cheaper. They're both outstanding. But Dimension doesn't stain since it has no color. For cool-season New England/Metro NY, I only recommend these 2 molecules. I'll take orders from stubborn people for any of the others if that is what they want. But I'd be happy to stick with either of the 2 since there is almost no difference in overall efficacy. While pendimethalin doesn't claim it on the lable, it does knock down small crabgrass under the right conditions. I once participated in some greenhouse bench tests where this was determined to be accurate. But dithiopyr is better at controlling crabgrass that has emerged. Liquid sprays are almost mandatory to realize the true post-emergent benefit though.

    Here is one university study where the results are all over the board.


    Go to at least table #4 to find %crabgrass in this one.


    This table just Dimension:


    Here is the main menu of all the turf studies they have on-line:


    Kansas State has this very good publication on general weed control options:


    This one supports the theory that Pre-M offers partial control of dandelions but makes Dimension look pretty bad. This one seems consistent with others with respect to dicot supression/control with pre's in general.


    There are a LOT of published university studies out there for anyone who looks using some of the popular search engines. I used:


    But there are others. Try to remember that most any herbicide can be found to perform poorly or very well, if you look long enough. Manufacturers & formulators will often quote only those studies that favor the compounds that they WANT to SELL.

    In the university tests, a lot of the actual application work is done by inexperienced interns & such. Therefore, you don't want to view just a couple before you try to draw any conclusions.

    I hope this helps


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