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I bought this new product,which contains fipronil(chemical name is about a foot long), for eliminating fire ants and am going to try it out on my yard.This is not something that you sprinkle on the mounds but rather you apply it with a fertilizer spreader.It SUPPOSEDLY kills the ants and prevents mound formation for an entire season. It's called OVER'N OUT by a company called GardenTech.
Fire ants are a huge problem here(probably everywhere).If this stuff works as advertised I believe alot of my customers would gladly pay to have it applied to their lawns.My concern of course is what effect,if any,it will have on the lawn.
I have always felt like treating fire ant mounds was an exercise in futility.Has anyone tried this product or others like it?Thanks in advance. Jim
 

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Do a search under Fire Ants or Top Choice. There has been a lot posted here about Fire Ant Control. I am not going to rewrite what was already said. If you have question about the old threads just post it to that thread and it will become current. Someone will give you an answer.
 

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The active ingredient is finopronil. Finopronil is also used for termites and it's the active ingredient they put on the back of a dogs (or cats) neck to treat for fleas & ticks.

There is less active ingredient in a single bag of Over-N-Out than there is in a drop for the smallest dogs neck.

I have found that if I apply the Over-N-Out in April it works. When applying in late summer or, god forbid September, (which seems to be when fire ants are the most problematic) Over-N-Out has had no effect at all.

I just had to refund a lady for my fire ant control. I applied one bag in early August to a 4,500 sq ft lawn/landscape. She called me two weeks later and there were three mounds. I used Orthene and applied yet another bag of Over-N-Out. Next week, another call. This time four new mounds. I apply Orthene again. Tell her to just wait and see what happens. Next week, 2 new mounds. Finally, I just told her I'd refund her money. Only after looking like a total fool. She said it seemed as if my product were actually attracting the fire ants. Anyway, I was there to mow again today and wouldn't you know it! Another brand new mound. Oh well, not my problem anymore.

Last year, (2002) Over-N-Out was advertised on the NCAA basketball tournament. I bought a bag, applied it to my lawn and I had no fire ants all year. This year, I had four people sign up in the spring. Three worked, one failed. I re-applied and it worked. Then this lady signed up in August and it was a total failure. Of course, I treated my lawn again this spring, but I've had two mounds in the last 3 weeks.

Top Choice has the same active ingredient, only it's about 30%more expensive. But it does have about 40% more active ingredient.

This winter I'm going to try to get in touch with the university guys who actually did the testing on finopronil with fire ants. I have a feeling the stuff works, but you have got to set the correct expectations with the customer before applying. I've called and spoken with the Gardentech sales director, Darren Hoarst was his name I think, but I wasn't too impressed with him.

If I decide to continue on with the fire ant control product, I think I'll go with Top Choice. The Lesco guy said they'd warrant the product same as GardenTech.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper
 

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Below is a copy and paste of a reply I made in an other forum concerning Fire Ants.


Top Choice is a great product, but at $126. A bag it is not in everyone’s price range. True it does last a year and if mole crickets are a problem then you get two for one.

Texas A & M developed a Fire Ant Program called the "Texas Two Step" I have found it to be very successful. Sorry I don't have there website URL but you may find via search engine.

STEP #1 Ant baits are applied over the entire property to be treated. If the weather is between 70-90 degrees worker ants carry the bait back to the nest and into the food chain. If the weather is not between 70-90 degrees then the colony will be inactive. Monogyne colonies (single Queen) (reddish color) will be easier to control than Pologyne colonies (20-60 Queens)(orangish-brown color) and may require more treatment. It is important to remember that after mating Queens can fly 12 miles and their nests do not become visible for up to 3-4 months. Baits are effective during this time. Baits containing Hydramethylnon work in 1-5 weeks and kill all members of the colony. Baits containing Fenoxycarb or Abamectin stop egg production and take 5-10 weeks to kill all members of the colony.

STEP#2a Spot treat all visible mounds 2-3 days after applying bait and keep customer happy

Step# 2b Apply general insecticide treatment a week later to stop forging ants and keep customer happy


It costs about $15.00 to treat an acre with baits. Studies have shown that early summer application give control for up to a year on treated areas over an acre. The larger the area treated the longer the control. Once control is gained it can be maintained with bait treatments every three months on smaller properties





The above reply was to a discussion about fipronil the active in Top Choice. FIPRONIL TAKES 5 TO 6 WEEKS TO WORK or about the same time as baits containing Hydramethylnon.



DFW Area Landscaper

I think if you had done a little more home work and understood life cycles and insecticides, you would not of had the problems you stated. You would not had to re-apply a chemical that had not been given enough time to work and You could have educated your customer instead of refunding her money. But then again your customer got every thing she paid for. My customers pay more for what I know than for what I do. The sad thing is too many states sell pesticide licenses at the local drug store. I can hear you screaming now and I haven't clicked the submit reply yet. Don't get mad at me. Get a real education.
 

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Ric,

++++Don't get mad at me. Get a real education.++++

That's why I'm on here. If I didn't care, I wouldn't be researching this.

So what you're saying is that if I leave the mounds untouched for 5 to 6 weeks, they'll die off from the Fipronil?

The only problem is, I applied the stuff on August 4th. Since I made the application, there have been several new mounds each and every week. I've been applying Orthene to the mounds as they appear. Anyway, we had a new mound appear this week, October 8th. That's WAY more than 5 to 6 weeks after application. That's more like 9 weeks.

I'm curious. If I were your customer, how would you sell your fire ant service? What would you tell me it will do for me without over promising?

Sevin/Over-N-Out is guaranteeing their product, but with results like I'm getting this time of year, I'd guess they're refunding a lot money.

I'm curious to know how you sell this service without over promising. I had been telling my customers that one application would prevent new mounds for the season and it was working up til late summer. But now I'm not so sure. I've had such opposite results with this stuff comparing spring to late summer applications. It seems to work very well if applied in the spring and not work at all if applied in late summer.

Thanks,
DFW Area Landscaper
 

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DFW

I was just in your town 9/19 & 9/20. Downtown Dallas on a Saturday night is a mad house. Long lines to get in Every juc-joint. I can't tell you how many times I got lost on the interstates. I have a niece who lives there and her Husband is a Certified Landscape Architect.

Texas Two Step. The second step works on Fipronil the same as baits, Both take a while to work. Step 2b above is a general pesticide application. The big trick here is to use a lot of water with a wetting agent. Talstar works good and has a month of residual. OK you don't have a big sprayer So Talstar granules works great just water it in real good.

Texas Two Step. Step one only with Fipronil. OK first let me say I have never used Over and Out. Second Always read the Label completely of any pesticide. Top Choice label will tell you to water it in. Do so as soon as possible after applying. Any chemical that is hit by sun light will start to break down. Over and Out should be no different. No I have never seen a Over and Out label.

Next my questions are. 1. Did you read the label completely. 2. did you water in the Over and Out right away. 3. Did you apply this product at label rate. 4. Do you calibrate your spreader. No answer required. However these are the reasons Over and Out might not have worked for you. I am 1300 miles away from you so I can only guess why the product didn't work for you.



Marketing Fire Ant Control. Now after a wonderful Divorce. I now live under the bridge down by the river in my 1975 3 door hatch back Pinto. The closes pay phone # ends in 2687 and that spells ANTS. The divorce has been a while and I can afford to have the other pay phone hook to a toll free number 866-268-7***. That spells 8NO ANTS ***. Now I have both these number on the side of my Pinto and my Huff Spray Bike with the B&G boom sprayer. ( Mr. Jim aka groundskper. has a better car than I do but I will let him tell you). Bottom line Signs can work. News letters on you invoice will keep customer informed and are a wonderful way to sell up grades or other services. In your area I would not spend a lot of money on yellow page advertising because there are to many big boys with big ads and your will be lost. However here in East Hicksville a small Yellow page add does. Last but the most important is Word of mouth.

What do I promise my Customer?? one year Fire Ant control. With free call backs. We have had over 70" of rain this year and Fire Ants are on the move. No call Backs so far.
 

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Southern hobos living under bridges? Too bad they don't have the success we do up north. Divorces are bummers, but I at least have a tent to live in. And two cars. My only problem is when it rains, do I park

my BMW Isetta:


or my Messerschmitt:


in the tent?

But this year has been so profitable, I think I can buy another tent for the other car.

And if we ever get fire ants up here, I'll make such a killing that I'll be doing my applications on a Moped instead of a Huffy!
 

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Ric,

++++Next my questions are. 1. Did you read the label completely. 2. did you water in the Over and Out right away. 3. Did you apply this product at label rate. 4. Do you calibrate your spreader. No answer required. However these are the reasons Over and Out might not have worked for you. I am 1300 miles away from you so I can only guess why the product didn't work for you.++++

Yes to all those questions, though the Over-N-Out label says nothing about needing to water it in. But it was watered in within a few hours.

Now, I'm just wondering...why does Top Choice have 40% more fipronil than Over-N-Out? If Sevin wanted to put 40% more AI in the bag, obviously, it's approved by the regulators. The real costs that go into a bag of Over-N-Out are research, marketing, advertising, customer service, sales, shipping...the AI is probably a very, very small percentage of the costs of this product. So why go chincy on it, especially if it's guaranteed or your money back...to consumers! Compound that with all the consumers who buy this product at Home Depot and Lowe's and won't read the label, won't calibrate their spreaders and won't apply at the directed rates? Why not put that extra 40% in the bag?

Just scratching my head on this one? Next year, I'm going with Top Choice for sure.

But I've got to do some more research on this. My gut feeling is that its more effective if applied in the spring.

Later,
DFW Area Landscaper
 

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DFW

Top choice applied in the spring is effective on Mole Crickets also. Mole Crickets are very hard to kill as adults and the nymphs in the spring are much easier. Mole Crickets are the Number one insect pest on Bermuda Grass. They also are the only insect pest on Bahia Grass. They do not effect St Augustine Grass.

Once again I still have not read a Over N Out label. A quick look in Bluebooktor.com and CDMS.net (Label websites) I can not find a label. Therefore I can not tell you the difference. Top Choice rate is 2 lbs per K. to my knowledge Over N Out is marketed as a home owner product.
 

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DFW

On another forum that deals mostly with inside Pest Control and no lawn service. Several members were mad because they could buy Over-N-Out cheaper at Home Depot than Top Choice at there supplier. Top Choice is "Fair Trade" which means everyone must sell it at the same price.

They did the math which includes the AI difference. and still came out cheaper. A lot was said about how we pay more for the INK on the label than the product inside. Sorry for getting on you, good luck.

PS You could of had a bad bag of Over-N-Out. I could tell a few Stories about bad chemicals.
 

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On another forum that deals mostly with inside Pest Control and no lawn service. Several members were mad because they could buy Over-N-Out cheaper at Home Depot than Top Choice at there supplier. Top Choice is "Fair Trade" which means everyone must sell it at the same price.

They did the math which includes the AI difference. and still came out cheaper. A lot was said about how we pay more for the INK on the label than the product inside. Sorry for getting on you, good luck.

PS You could of had a bad bag of Over-N-Out. I could tell a few Stories about bad chemicals.
 

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Well guys, that lawn that had the disastrous Over-N-Out fipronil app last fall hasn't had a single fire mound so far this season. First application was made on August 4th. Next application was made about 6 weeks later. Two weeks after that, I refunded the customer's money because there were still new mounds appearing every week.

But we've just had a ton of rain the last week or so, and so far, no fire ants anywhere on her property.

Last winter, another customer signed up for fire ant control. We had already returned the unopened bags of Over-N-Out to Lowe's and we had a 50 lb bag of Top Choice on hand. We made the application on December 11th. But two weeks ago, she had two mounds on her property. So we re-applied. Both mounds are gone, but there's a new one in another location.

So Ric, or anyone else for that matter: The concept behind fipronil for fire ants is that as the ants forage, they track the stuff back to their nest. Since they can't detect it, they don't ever pack up and move, like they will with Orthene. At least that's the way I understand it. I'd like to learn more about the life cycle of the fire ant. I've been to a few Texas A&M web sights on it. There is a fly they're trying to establish here in Texas from South America that actually lays it's eggs in the head of the fire ants. It's the only naturaly predator for fire ants in the world, from what I understand. Anyway, they haven't been able to get the flies to survive a winter north of about Waco.

I can tell you that I started using Over-N-Out on my lawn about 3 years ago. I've applied fipronil to my lawn three times now. The first year, I accidentally applied the stuff at twice the recommended rate. It's worked beautifully ever since. Prior to that, I was constantly, I mean every week, sprinkling Ortho on mounds in my lawn. But since I started using fipronil, not a single fire ant colony on my landscape. So I know the stuff works. But I'm just not getting consistent results at all.

Anyone have any clue why the stuff would work better after it's been on the lawn 8 or 9 months than it did when it was first applied???? Is it somehow good for killing small colonies but not large colonies??? Is it possible that fire ant colonies can be essentially "dormant", deep under ground for months at a time before coming to the surface to create a new mound????

Right now, that's the only logical explanation I can come up with. The fire ant colonies can be "dormant", way under ground for months on end. As soon as a good rain comes along, it can cause them to "surface" and build a new mound. Eventually, as the ants track the fipronil back to the mound, there gets to be too much fipronil for the larvae to survive. Once the larvae stop hatching, the colony dies. My guess anyway. So maybe that's why you see new mounds months after the first app? But if we just leave them alone, they'll get bigger and bigger until finally the ants track enough fipronil back to the colony to cause the larvae to get sick and die.

Thanks,
DFW Area Landscaper
 

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My understanding of Fire ant colonies is that all the mounds are interconnected in pretty much a straight line with each other. They say in a plane flying low you can trace the path of the mound movement from one area to another for hundreds of miles. All are connected to each other by underground pathways. I do know that on my 7 acre property I kill mounds every year that seem to be dead and the grass even grows back. But the next season the same mounds pop back up and others also appear where there were none before. Thus, I kill mounds with Orthene at least once a month until winter comes but they always seem to reappear the following season.
They say that when the world dies off the last living creature will be a cockroach. I disagree, I think it will be a Fire ant.
 

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robertyb

First with 7 acres you should be be applying baits every three month to maintain control. Your cost should be about $ 15.00 per acre.

Second-- Monogyne colonies (single Queen) are antagonistic and therefor have small number of mounds per acre than Pologyne colonies (20-60 Queens). Pologyne Colonies do not exists in South America where they are from. It is believed that Pologyne colonies are in fact a mutation of the Monogyne colonies.

Third-- I have not heard the interconnected theory or the straight line theory of the fire ant. However If you read my other post about Fire Ants. They mate in the air and are blown by the wind. This might a count for the straight line.
 

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http://fireant.tamu.edu/

As Ric has referenced to.

Fipronil has been around for a while as "Regent" as a soil insecticide for chinch bugs, etc. on row crops. Orkin is currently using it in dfw for their termite product. They claim it is a 5-year treatment (injected under pier and beam foundations). Personally, I can't guarantee a fire-ant product in my area. Many accounts are often rural estates surrounded by pastureland dotted with mounds. Its like staring at the enemy across the dmz. Several years back I offered a SPRING fire ant bait treatment as a "perk" for customers. Since then I charge a fee and have about 90% request it again. After two years, this has given adequate SUPPRESSION of fire ants. If you are going to guarantee control, I believe you would have to pursue it with a thorough program as Ric has prescribed.

As with everything we do, timing is very important. I don't think of December as a good time for fire ant apps. Check the weather, check the forecast and heed the label. By the way, I have a neighbor who still swears by the gasoline on mound and throw a match method. Its fun to watch him anyway---from a distance.
 

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greenerpastures

Thank you for taking the time to find the website I referred to in my second post to this thread. I have bookmarked that site now and think anyone in Fire Ant Country should also.

I have not re read that site yet but will because it looks like they have up graded it. It has been a couple of years since I went there.

Maxi Force put out a video tape for free, about Ants in general. Anyone interested in ant treatment might want to pick up that video tape also. It is easy watching and informative.
 
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