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granular V.S Spray

Discussion in 'Pesticide & Herbicide Application' started by George777, Sep 3, 2001.

  1. George777

    George777 LawnSite Senior Member
    from Alabama
    Messages: 305

    I would like to find out what are some advantages of spraying Pre-M?
    What method do most of you use Spray or granular?
  2. KirbysLawn

    KirbysLawn Millenium Member
    Messages: 3,485

  3. pat rayne

    pat rayne LawnSite Member
    Messages: 2

    We have been using liquid. Pendulum the yellow stuff. Main advantage we can use any othe sprayable at the same time but we mainly uew trimec 992 or liquid fertilizer 28 uan solution.

    MATTHEW LawnSite Senior Member
    from NE OHIO
    Messages: 665

    I never use liquid Pre-em. It stains everything it touches. Gets all over your uniform. Dogs track it in the homes. Just try once to wash it out. I have noticed that for some reason it doesn't seem to work as well as granular. You would think it gets better coverage. Granular works best for me!
  5. tremor

    tremor LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,476

    There is no difference in the technical Pendimethalin used to make any of the Pre-M, Pendulum, Halts, etc. products. BASF (formerly American Cyanamid) produces the soild technical material, & formulators then use it to produce the end use materials that you can buy. Some granular producers have found out over the years about the technical challenges of making pendimethalin "stick" to a prilled carrier. Fertilzer, Limestone, clay, etc may all be used as carriers. The grass won't know the difference. Poorly made or old granular product will be dusty. They'll still work, but tough on the applicator.
    Granular, Wettable Powder, & Dispersible Granule products do offer generally better efficacy than the Emusifiable Concentrate formulation. EC's depend on frequently volatile carrier compounds that can result in a herbicide "gas-off" condition. Immediate watering the EC forms of Pre-M will eliminate this potential, but this is not allways practical. Sunshine, higher temp's, and lack of rain can wreak havok on EC's post treatment performance. The EC's volatility causes a distinct odor (inert, not active). EC's do have the advantage of not "settling-out" in poorly agitated or parked tanks. DG's & WP's require good agitation. Fill/mix for the day & come home empty when using WP & WDG. Mechanical agitation is more idiot proof, but hydraulic can work well when care is exhibitted.
    Since most granular formulators produce multiple fert grades for combos you do have quite a few choices. .86% gran products @1.5lbs AI/A are applied at 4lbs material/1000M. The label allows for flexibility here but watch the Nitrogen. If 2 or 2.5lbs Active are desired, a 19-20%N product will create significant growth. Choose a 13%N form instead. Amounts of slow-release N options vary too. 0-0-7 .86% Pre-M delivers no Nitrogen at all but a free .25lbs of Potash. Nice as a pre-stress conditioner when N isn't desired.
    Granulars may be had in .86% & 1.15% on fertilizer or 2% on a stand alone carrier. This effects rate & cost per acre. The higher analysis materials requires a smaller prill size to make up for the lowered rate of material/acre.
    But nothing beats the flexibility offered by using liquids. If you have access to competitively priced liquid Fertilizer, you then can make one Mid-Spring trip across the lawns. While liquid slow release ferts are more expensive than granular, the labor savings makes up for it. When timed correctly, results are better as some LCO's like to wait for their second service to treat for weeds. This causes untold phone complaints for weeds in this area (MetroNY/Southern New England).Your area would prove similar. Just about any chemical you might want to apply may be tank mixxed with pendimethalin. The New York neighbor-notification law has made a one time per year pesticide treatment very desirable. Only a tank mix makes this possible. Preemergent Crab, Post Emergent BroadWeed, Surface Insect (talstar, deltagard, etc) & Subsurface Grub (merit, MachII) can all be tank mixxed for a single trip across when timed correctly. This approach require waiting for weeds to resume active growth in the spring (Mid-Late April around here). If 1 round/service takes more than 2 weeks, Crabgrass will usually be coming up before the Pre is applied. Adding .25-.3 oz of Acclaim solves this problem. Some applicators have switched to Dimension Ultra for it's Post-Emergent activity for this reason (or do so towards the end of the round).
    Pre-M & its relatives will stain. Even more than the other dinitro-analine (yellow) herbicides. That hasn't stopped our industry from turning it into the most widely used pre-emergent herbicide in the country though. There are products available to help clean stains when a misaaplication (illegal) has occurred. Exposure to direct sunlight eliminates the stains better than most cleaners. Just because a product dosen't stain, doesn't mean you and your applicators aren't wearing it. Be more careful, your health depends on it.
    Pre-M also exhibits good solubility prior to binding with soil, so it sets up a barrier more quickly than some other pre's. Nice if your running behind or irrigation is limited. It's gaseous soil state allows it to repair itself should the barrier get broken. Some university data suggests that no harm comes to efficacy even when treated turf is aerated. I don't advise this approach, but some people do it.
    When efficacy issues arise, I am rarely concerned with formulation (except the EC's). Instead look to environmental issues, turf quality, amount of crabgrass in prior year or pressure, amount & timimg of rainfall/irrigation, when applied, etc, etc, etc. Major turf schools have tested herbicide performance to boredom. Formulators allways quote studies that favor the product they like to sell. But a competitor allways seems to have an opposing study. Who to believe? Since turf schools don't buy or apply anywhere near the amount of herbicides that you guys do, I'd be careful not to read too much into these trials. First hand experience indicates that all formulations work well when properly timed and applied. Professional applicators are about split on what they like to use. Smaller applicators often go granular. Bigger guys often go liquid. Access to the proper application equipment and the experience of the applicators usually are the ultimate determining factors. Local environmental/political climates often favor the granular applicator even though there is no scientific reason for the liquid phobia. Some LCO's even make the argument that liquids are more dangerous. It is their dishonesty that is dangerous; to all of us.
    A popular large LCO approach is to start the season in March with granular. Switch to liquid in mid-April when weeds start growing(tank-mix with post). Continue liquid into the front half of the second round until everyones been hit with weed-control. This is a good compromise when many lawns are to be treated. It also insures that the lawns that were treated early all get hit twice. Pretty important when going out so early.
    Examine how many lawns you need to do. How's the liquid applicator skill level of your guys? And, what is or isn't working with your existing program. Use whichever product fits your goals & program the best.
    Make lots of green backs & lawns! Steve
  6. George777

    George777 LawnSite Senior Member
    from Alabama
    Messages: 305

    Tremor, I must thank you for your post. this has to be one of THE Best posts I have recieved. I have been dealing with Lesco and they have come up with a plan for this area, however I feel that the fert plan is to benifit them.

    Tomorrow I need to corner my Hort. instructor and ask some questions. I now have a better understanding about this issue and Thank you for your input.
  7. tremor

    tremor LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,476


    I work for LESCO.

    When dealing with our Service Centers, you may find the manager has to stock what the majority of the stores customers use. He/She is probably not being thoughtless, just trying to manage inventories effectively.

    I just checked it out, between granular (fert combo & straight) and sprayable formulations of Pre-M, there are NINETY ONE (91) options on the list.

    This doesn't include custom blends or private label agreements. It also doesn't even look at Team, TeamPro, Dimension, Ronstar, SuperStar, Surflan, Benefin, wow.

    Work with the store mgr. or drop me a private e-mail. With as many options that are available, something will work. Honest.


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