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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Seriously guys, how can you believe that bunch of crap? Before I expand, please help me...

Where in the world did you learn that? So far most everyone that I hear saying that salts in fertilizers kill microbes sources their info from Dr. Ingham. The only other source I have noted is form our friend Stewards of the Land, who made that claim but most his learning is from Dr Melendrez.

So I ask again, where did you learn salts kill microbes?
 

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after a hurricane like we are getting now its called a sand dune??? every time we see salt in the soil its an up hill battle!!!! maybe Tim or some one else will chime, maybe its when the chlorine comes un glued from the sodium????
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
"Salts" don't kill microbes. Microbes and plants need salts.
What kills microbes and plants are high concentrations of salts.
Thanks Kiril, that's my understanding. Question for you... Can an organic landscape (nutrient cycling, no/low input) ever produce an overabundance of the salts?

Ummm, irrigation and other factors... I answered my own question.

Another question, does the high concentration basically lock up the soil moisture, and the plants and microbes basically dehydrate?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The "Salts" we are talking about are not Sodium Chloride, they are the plant available inorganic nutrients that plants need. The ones that microbes "make" that the plant absorbs, the ones that are found in synthetic fertilizers like Ammonium Sulphate, Ammonium Nitrate, or Potasium Phosphate. The ones that "are in" (really just "are") the fertilizers. NaCl isn't in any fertilizers I know of, but no oceans by me and NaCl isn't much of a problem here, Out there in Florida on the other hand, you gotta know your NaCl stuff.
 

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This is usually a factor of extended use which correlates to Kiril's statement of overuse.

I will probably find time in the future to post some microbial video on my website illustrating this.

In the interim, you could likely illustrate this to yourself on a macro level if you were to find two similar grass/hay fields in the same region; one which has been grown chemically over the years; the other grown naturally. Provided they have similar soil types and moisture, it is most likely that when you dig into the chemical field, you will find much MUCH lower numbers of 'bugs' like rollie pollies, mites, rove beetles, other types of beetles, springtails, worms, etc, etc. These numbers, directly correlate to the numbers of microbes in the soil.

My neighbor's fields compared to our's is a classic example of the outward effects of using chemicals. He has used chemicals for years while we have used none. Last year he did not get around to applying chemicals and his hay did not grow. There was, apparently, insufficient microbial life to sustain the growth naturally. Ours grew with no fertilizers, as usual.

I do not use Elaine Ingham as a reference.

David, Do you need to use such an abrasive and immature tone?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thank you Kiril, I'lll review. No problem with it being Wikki.

Tim, sorry for the tone. I'm just sick of reading everywhere that synthetic fertilizers polute soil and kill microbes (when used respoonsibly they don't IMO... even over time). I made some awesome connections last night and my zeal might have come out a little wrong.

I partly use that tone to stirr emotion and discussion. It is a public forum and unfortunately controversy is what gets people attention. Especially controversy that challenges what people currently believe.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Kiril,

I understhood the whole salts are neutral molecules composed of bonded cations and anions, but in review I realized these separate when in the water solution. Is that always the case? When salts are disolved, their respective ions are freely suspended in the solution?

If it is, it would suggest plants can be even more selective about the nutrients they absorb. And how inbalanced fertilizing CAN cause damaging nutrient inbalances? If that's true, it would be all the more reason to establish the nutrient cycle... interesting.

I think I get the high salt concentration issue better... it can even cause water to be taken out of plant and animal cells, not just keep them from absorbing it?
 
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inorganic SALT based ferts do kill and reduce micro's#, ive seen it with my own two eyes under the scope. but with that being said that doesn't mean if you apply them you kill all organisms. it means that you create condions that are not as favorable to them.
I've tested soils(turf soils) low OM grass clippings removed synthetic ferts only for years and there are still decent populations of microorganisms but soils with higher OM and soils that are not synthetically fertilizer have higher #'s, it's a balance issue.
salts do harm it's a fact, but doesn't mean you can't use them. plants need those soluble nutrients with out proper nutrient cycling going on in the soil.
trick is to build the soil to a point that those synthetic aren't needed any more. takes time with most poor soils. try to use less ferts and that are lower on the salt index while maintaining growth while soil builds

most in organics will say just stop the synthetic from the start but if you are in a lawn care biz professionally and soils are poor and micro's # are few and budgets are small, how are you going to keep the grass growing while you increase OM and micro's numbers? do what you have to do to keep the lawn growing and work on the rest in the mean time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hmmm, not buying in completely DeepRoots...

But it is interesting you say you have seen it under the microscope... do you mind explaining what you tested and how? You also say "salts do harm it's a fact". Are you suggesting if I put down any amount of urea on my lawn the microbes will be negatively affected? Where did you get that salts do harm it's a fact? Better wording might be to say "excessive salts harm".

Answer me this if you would...

Why do microbes make the inorganic ion salts that plants need in the first place?

If you answer that you might be more careful with your wording about salts. That is my point.

I am wokring on an article about it (well a series of 3 maybe 4 articles). I prolly can't post my site on this one... but if you (or anyone) want to read it, pm me and I'll send you a link when I get it up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks again Kiril. Some of that is going to take a few readings to digest. Lots of new words. I think I'm still on track?
 
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jd,
your right, better wording would have been excessive salts harm.
my testing and observations are solly based on CT and adding synthetic based ferts at different concentrations, i need to do more testing to determine at what concentrations ppm are really denotational and what are safe. and what type of different fertilizer elements make up's(ie ammonium nitrate,urea,ammonium sulfate,sodium nitrate ete ete. cause the most damage.next i hope to start testing soils, that all takes lots lots of time.
I'm fairly new to the world of organic's my self and feel that it will take me many many years more to realize the real facts when it comes to these questions.

when it comes to understanding these things i think nothing is better then to view and realize the truth your self by experimentation and viewing with a scope./
jd, get a scope and help us figure the truth out ok?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
OK, I'm going to save the main points for my site but here are some thinking tips...

Why do microbes break down organic matter into inorganic ions/nutrients?

Ever had strep throat? Then you had a throat culture? What did the doctor use to grow the bacteria? Did the Petri dish contain gel, carbohydrates, and inorganic salts? Why are the salts used in a Petri dish if they kill microbes?

Or how about a study form Nigeria? They are trying to find a way to take a waste stream from producing cormel flour and convert it into a protein source. They are trying to do this by breeding fungi A. oryzae in the waste and letting it synthesize the proteins.

What happened when they added these supposed bad salts to the sample?

"Protein content of substrate enriched with the mutant fungal strain was higher than that enriched with the wild strain. Addition of (NH4)2SO4, NH4NO3, NH4Cl, and urea to Xanthosoma solid process waste increased the growth rate of mutant, with the highest increase observed with urea. Medium amended with urea also had the highest protein level of 26.23% strain compared to a protein yield of 17.41% obtained in the control with no added nitrogen."
http://www.bioline.org.br/request?jb03046

Why did adding these salts increase the fungal population if it harms the fungi?

Once again, why do the microbes break complex organic matter down into the inorganic ions in the first place? Perhaps plants are not the only ones that need them broken down before they can use them to build things? ding?

Edit: Deeproots, I am for sure on the same quest, and the scope is in the scope of things... bahaha, sorry.
 
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microbes are found on the bottom of the ocean surviving on sulfur only, there are many different microbes that thrive on many different things. we all know that

jd lets start here, get a scope and lets do some testing?

As far as synthetic ferts compared to microbial made goes, to me it's the inert substances and impurity's that can have possible negative affects as compared to pure compounds derived from micro's
hope that makes some sense?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
microbes are found on the bottom of the ocean surviving on sulfur only
I doubt that the only element that makes that microbe is sulfur. I'm sure it needs carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, oxygen. All living organisms need and make protiens. Protiens are made up of amino acids, amino acids have more in them than just sulfur. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amino_acid

Anyways, I'll work on getting a microscope, and a CT system, and a DO meter, and a pH meter. But in the meantime I'm going to keep studying.
 
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