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Herbicide resistance

Discussion in 'Pesticide & Herbicide Application' started by phasthound, Dec 18, 2013.

  1. greendoctor

    greendoctor LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 9,765

    Multiple products prevents shifts in weed population. 2,4-D by itself will kill dandelions. However, clovers will become dominant. I am all too familiar with what happens when a herbicide with a limited spectrum of activity is used to the exclusion of other products. Glyphosate resistance was no surprise to me. Even before that trait was engineered into cotton or soybeans, I have known about some broadleaf species resistant or less susceptible to glyphosate back in the 1990's.
  2. ted putnam

    ted putnam LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,671

    If there was one product that controlled all weeds and left only turf, someone would be filthy rich.

    I use combinations of herbicides on a daily basis. Many overlap on the label list of weeds controlled but are used only to broaden spectrum of control. If I were killing turf or like this thread's theme of leaving weeds behind to survive and develop resistance causing exploding populations of resistant target weeds then I would say I was doing something wrong and I would need to change my tactics.

    The fact is, I'm not doing either.

    Proper application methods at proper rates with proper equipment that is regularly calibrated is key in my opinion.

    I think many of the problems that arise(weed resistance included) are brought on by being sloppy, cheap or lazy when it comes to any one or all of those key factors.

    Add to that sheer number of acres treated and I think we all see what sector of the Ag industry is causing the major portion of weed resistance problems.

    I think our sector tends to attract more attention when problems like this arise because we are in closer proximity to everyday people and what they observe on a daily basis
  3. rcreech

    rcreech Sponsor
    Male, from OHIO
    Messages: 6,153

    Posted via Mobile Device
  4. greendoctor

    greendoctor LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 9,765

    Except for one or two weeds that are heavily treated for by the golf courses, I do not see much in the way of resistant weeds in turf. However, in non crop areas, I see the population shifts caused by decisions not based on facts. What happens when municipalities and landowners are coerced into using one herbicide only because it is supposedly safer/more environmentally friendly than the others.

    Otherwise, I see fewer weeds in my treated turf over time. I do not routinely apply preemergents or even postemergents. Those are only tools for cleaning up what is otherwise a re sod. My broad spectrum, scorched earth applications are only used to gain control of weed patches. After that, weed control is based on proper mowing, fertilization, and irrigation. I find that laziness and or mediocrity in those areas perpetuates weed problems.
  5. Skipster

    Skipster LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,075

    You're right that anyone should be fully research what they read on this board. Our industry's regulators see the things we talk about on this board play out everyday. Guys here often think that their stuff don't stink -- everyone else is doing it wrong but me. They blame resistance on everyone else and they refuse to change their own practices that are contributing to it. They use products off label, but think its only a problem when someone else does it.

    At a recent weed science conference, one university professor said something that made the whole audience stand up and clap. He said that the lawn care industry is doing more to promote herbicide resistance than any other herbicide using category (this guy researches row crops AND turf). A rep from a large multi-state chemical distributor said that for the most part LCOs don't understand the concept of resistance and think that they can't contribute to it because of the small size of lawns.

    This thread just proved those guys right.
  6. ted putnam

    ted putnam LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,671

    That's kind of a blanket statement that's not fair...don't you think Skip??

    Lets lay out some facts here Skip. This is proof(to me) based on first hand observations by me in my area. I'm not a scientist in any way but this is how I see it.

    A couple of years ago we were told that there were 17 weeds in the United States that were R-Up resistant. Arkansas had 9 of them at the time. I am going to use Ragweed and Johnsongrass as my 2 examples out of simplicity.

    FACT:First, let me tell you what I don't see. I rarely see either of these weeds in any of my customers lawns.(Whether new and weed infested or previously treated)
    Even when they are nasty and full of everything else, they rarely have these.
    In fact, I can only think of 4 lawns in the last 5 yrs that I've even had to spray Johnsongrass in(out of hundreds) yet we have R-Up resistant Johnsongrass in Akansas????

    Now, let me tell you what I do see. I drive up and down state highways all over my county and I see guys in Arkansas Highway Dept spray trucks spraying some road edges, around signs and bridge embankments and I specifically see them seek out random patches of Johnsongrass along the edge of the highways. How do I know this? I see it turning crispy about a week later. You know what else I see? I see that **** start coming back about 4-5 weeks later and within 2 months its "green as a gourd" again.

    Let me tell you what else I see. We aren't in the gulf coastal plain like eastern Arkansas but we are along the Arkansas River corridor here so I see large tracts of Rice and Soybeans being grown by local farmers. I see it being sprayed by both crop dusters and tractor/boom. Along the edges of these fields (levies, ditches, etc...), occasionally I'll see patches of half crispy Johnsongrass and Ragweed that somehow never completely die.

    You tell me Skip...who do you think it is in my area that is contributing the most to herbicide resistance???. Me or them...

    Who do you think pays for the majority of that Phd's research at that University?
    -Large Chemical companies? (who's largest customers are crop producers)
    -Large farm associations?
    ** I'll give you a hint. It's not the third choice...

    Surely that wouldn't skew anything...:rolleyes:
  7. rcreech

    rcreech Sponsor
    Male, from OHIO
    Messages: 6,153


    You have lost all credibility on here if you ask me.

    You have 2-4,d controlls clover, combining products doesnt improve efficacy of prodcits and that resistance of weeds started with LCO's.
    Now you say that the lawn care industry does more to promote weed resistance than any other industry.
    I call BULLCRAP as the Ag side has been dealing with resistance for many yrs and we deal with it every day.
    I don't know of any weed resistance to the products I use at this time.

    U stated that there is weed resistance to 3 way and you have yet to back that up.

    Question for you
    And you say you have a phd in another post??

    If you are a phd why do you have a turf business anyway?
    Just curious
    Posted via Mobile Device
  8. fl-landscapes

    fl-landscapes LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,542

    I call b.s. too, trying to get street Cred, like Elizabeth warren claiming to be a native american. Glad I got skippy on ignore but seeing you and Teds responses are worth the price of admission. :laugh:
  9. greendoctor

    greendoctor LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 9,765

    Tell me why your DOT is even applying glyphosate rather than something that will work. On invasive grasses growing in non crop areas my selections include Arsenal, Hyvar or Velpar. When I am asked to clean up a non crop site with a grass problem, the RoundUp bottle stays unused. This all goes back to political correctness contributing to the problem. One of the selling points of RoundUp ready was no need to use triazines or "quats". RoundUp would do it all. No need to use pre plant residual herbicides, those are bad, they contaminate the soil, then ground water.
  10. ted putnam

    ted putnam LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,671

    Greendoctor, I have absolutely no idea what they are spraying. I've never stopped to ask. I was merely using what I have observed as an example of what I see as "herbicide" resistance in the making...

    If there is another method to develop resistance to a herbicide by a plant other than this or gene mutation in a lab, I'd sure love to have someone explain it to me...

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