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Hydroseeding Profit

43K views 97 replies 24 participants last post by  Deputy_Swan 
#1 ·
Any of you guys that do hydroseeding or any of you that have picked up a hydroseeder, are you seeing a good profit come in?

I am in the south and every commercial job that bids has hydroseeding on it. And it seems like a logical/cheaper way to give a yard some lawn besides sod. Do you guys stay busy with your hydroseeders?

Which series do you recommend?
 
#2 ·
Originally posted by RwADesigner
Any of you guys that do hydroseeding or any of you that have picked up a hydroseeder, are you seeing a good profit come in?

I am in the south and every commercial job that bids has hydroseeding on it. And it seems like a logical/cheaper way to give a yard some lawn besides sod. Do you guys stay busy with your hydroseeders?

Which series do you recommend?
I am in the South as well and 97% of all jobs that I do only require seed, wheat straw and tack. The thing w/Hydroseeding is if you get a cheap one you will rue the day so to speak,(the agitating kind). Most of the Big Dogs I know all have the one's w/the paddle design but the cost is astronomical. This put's you at an disadvantage because you have to keep this Hydroseeder busy to pay for it's self and if you buy cheap then it just keep's you busy....working on it. Make sure you have enough work to facilitate owning one.
 
#3 ·
We like to sub it out to someone that only does hyroseeding. It is so cheap to get it sprayed on, and we make the money in the prep work. No storage, no maintenance, no down time, and they are very experienced.
We pay .08 SF. That means $ 800 for a 10,000 SF seed job. That includes seed, mulch, fert, labor, and all. How many times do you have to do 10k SF to pay for the equipment? More times than we will do it. You would have to run this thing almost daily in the season to break even.
 
#4 ·
I am very seriously looking into purchasing a hydroseeder.
Alot of the commercial jobs we bid have seeding listed.
Plus it is half the cost of sodding a job, so im sure some of these contractors or home builders would like that.

I still have a lot of research to do though. I see how a nice profit can be made. But i need more input and info.

Right now we sub it out for .07 cents/sf

The company we use charges us .06 to do it, so we just add a little penny to it. That doesnt include the dirt work though.
 
#5 ·
You're subbing at .06 a foot and you're gonna buy one? Don't be fooled by all the hype the jet blowers give you about paying for your machine in 10 acres or whatever. When's the last time you seeded 10 acres in a year? You;ll need a paddle machine to spread at most rates that LA's or gov's spec out and you'll blow alot of green water with the jets. They're cheap enough but they'll leave you wanting more. The jets tell you that cost to spray is .02 a foot, but they don't add tack or hormones or prem. seed rates and they don't take into account the loading time or mixing time etc... Keep subbing and you won't have the extra maintenance, licensing of a trailer, blah blah blah.
 
#8 ·
The subcontractor is in my opinion the absolute most important part of this industry. I pay like some guys $0.08/Sq Ft for hydroseeding. I also pay a guy $400 - $500 a day for skid steer work ie rockhounding/harley raking etc. They own machine so if it breaks it isnt my problem.

10000 SQ Ft lawn
$800 Hydroseeding
$250 Bobact 1/2 Day
$250 Soil
$1300 Total.

Say you charge Mrs. Jones $2100 you still made 33% gross profit ie $700. All you need to do is concentrate on the selling. Obviously you make lower margins but you dont have to factor in repairs, labor or the initial cost of the machine. I can only do one job at a time but 10 subcontractors can do 10 jobs.
The more subs you need the more money you make.
Sometimes I think that $35000 Finn or $20000 Bobcat would look nice parked out back but every minute it isnt being used it is costing me money.
 
#9 ·
Great post Boohoo...that is the way to make serious money in this business!

Simply put, a jet machine is sufficient if you want to enter the game at around $4000. You can get a pretty decent 300 gallon unit for this. A new Finn T-60 will retail for around $20,000 this season...taxes, title and delivery.

But like someone earlier said, the jet will leave you wanting more once you understand that the name of the $$ game in hydroseeding is "efficiency".

I call it cycle time....the cumulative amount of time it takes to fill...mix...and shoot a load of mulch. Cycle times vary from job to job 'cause the availability of water is going to be different on each job.

Cycle times vary from machine to machine 'cause of their ability to mix. If you are going to buy a jet, get one with plenty of engine and at least a 3 X 3 pump.

If and when you do begin the search process for a jet machine, don't be fooled by phoney baloney manufacturer's claims about how 'theirs' is more productive. Product 'names' that sound powerful and suggest better mixing capabilities are just that...words. I won't mention any here ;-).

We sell one at turfquip, and I'm not trying to turn this into a commercial, that I know for a fact will mix and shoot mat blend 50/50. It's good to be able to offer your customers wood :D
 
#10 ·
we bought a used bowie victor 800, which has paddles, 950 gallons,wisconsin 38 hp engine, bowie 2500 pump. we paid a grand for it, had to rebuild the pump, $300 fix the engine $400- but mostly labor on tuneup and timing, and I laid a 1/4 diamont plate top ove the old, as it had some foot sized rust hole- $150. He gave us about 800 lbs of mulch with it, and we've shot about 6 jobs in 4 months. we've got two more to do, and I am developing relationships with civil engineers who do retension ponds and big storm drains w/ the city, as thier specs call for hydro seeding. the first job we did has enough profit to purchase the machine, and the next was able to pay enough profit to get it in good running condition.

my next step is putting a 1/4 layer of rhino lining in the tank, and then along the fenders and body.

I love the machine, and going used on a mechanical is the way to go if you don't do this full time. the real money is in multiple tanks near a good water source such as a hydrant ( you can get a 2" portable meter from your water authority for a deposit ) or a pond if you have a suction option on your pump. fill time is critical. with two guys and a quick water source, You could do 8 tanks of mine in an 8 hour day no problem. I shoot for 10000 sq. feet per load, with 350 lbs of paper/wood blend, fescue /rye/and winter wheat blend on the seed in winter, bermuda/rye in spring and summer. home lawns get straight fescue blend.

I charge 1000 first tankload, 700 next, 600, and so on down to 400 for really large jobs. your mulch is the cost animal, watch the specs for highway as they sometime require 1 ton per acre, or 500 lbs per tank for me.

normal winter costs, per tank-
water, free
winter wheat- 120 lbs, 12.00
rye 50 lbs -20.00
fescue 50 lbs 35.00
fertilizer 50 lbs 19-19-19 7.00
slicky sticky- tack- 8 oz- 5.00
mulch- 350 lbs- 64.00
total-143.00/1000 sq. ft or $.0143 per sq. ft. -1.4 cents.

big jobs like an acre in a day- at an average of 6 cents times 40000 squre feet- 2400 dollars minus 1.4 times 40000 =$560
1840 per day gross ain't bad, and you literally could double that in a longer day, but water supply is critical.

Dave g
 
#12 ·
What if you are a small to medium landscaper? You 10 jobs a year that need 10k SF of hydro. You could hire a sub for $8k and pass it on to the customer. You charge for prep, mark up the hydro price, and make a few bucks. You and your guys are somewhere else making some other money the day the hydro gets sprayed. If you are busy anyway, you have lost nothing by subbing it out. You probably made more money using your two guys somewhere else.

You could buy a machine for $20k. You have a payment of over $400 a month for four years (twelve months a year). You can pay two of your guys to load it, drive it, and spray it when it is being used, but you will be paying that machine company every day whether it is used or not. Yes you will make good money on the days that you shoot an acre, but you need to fill a good bit of your calendar with those days or get the equipment at a good price like the guy above.
 
#13 ·
I have never seen the money in hydroseeding myself. We buy it for .05 a square foot. I add .01-.02 cents to it. However, I don't think it is worth it. The baby sitting involved sometimes isn't worth the profit margin. The calls about the seed not coming up, not as full as they thought, etc. etc. When possible I refer customers to hydroseeders that I work with. I make money preping the yards and I am content with that.
 
#14 ·
Do you guys bid any commercial jobs?

Because we bid alot of commercial jobs and probably 90-95% of them have seeding.

If you are just dealing with residential clients...then no...i couldnt see the benefit of owning a hydroseeder. But i definately see income potential for commercial. Now it then comes to whether you want to spend alot of money on the upper end models and spend lest time refilling...or spend less money on lesser model...but spend more time refilling.
 
#16 ·
My reply is to Ksss im sorry your not happy with hydroseeding, maybe you are working with a bad contractor. I always get seed germinating in 5 to 10 days varying on conditions and time of year. Since getting into the bussiness I have learned that there are a lot of people using Hydromulching as a scam, coerced into it by the makers of the cheap unreliable jet agitation units. You may want to check out www.htpa.org to find a new contractor.
 
#17 ·
www.hydroseeding.com
Lots of you questions can be answered there.
I might add that Ray at Turbo Turf owner of the site , is a very nice and helpful guy , no matter what machine you use .We currently run a home built unit 750 gal . Ray has answered a lot of my questions , and sold us some stuff we needed .
 
#18 ·
We have 2 machines, a bowie 1100 with a kubota diesel and centrifugal pump for larger jobs and a turfmaker 425 for residential jobs. We paid for the Bowie the first season we had it but we had a couple of federal aid roadside jobs and a municiple park job lined up before we bought it. We paid for the turfmaker in the first month but we were established in the business by then.
We just did a municiple job that was 86,960 square feet at 9.5 cents per foot. That makes the gross $8261.20. It took $1700 worth of wood mulch with tack, $339 worth of seed, $196.35 worth of fertilizer and $512 worth of Davis-Bacon wages. The job took 11.5 loads with the Bowie and we did it in one 16 hour day. That makes our profit a little over $5000 for one day.
Not too bad really.
 
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#19 ·
I'm gonna find out. Just bought a FINN t60, 550 nurse tank, 3" Kawi semi-trash pump for pond/stream water,and hydrant hookup. Gonna use lesco stuff (1 mile) 70/30 wood mulch. Decent setup guys???????? 4 bales in 600 gallons?
 
#20 ·
I bet you'll find that the 3" pump will fill your tank a lot faster than you can load materials if you have it throttled up. Sounds like a pretty good set-up to me. We use (3) 50 pound bales of wood mulch or (4) 50 pound bales of paper mulch in our 425 gallon unit. I don't see why you couldn't put in 4 bales of 70/30.
 
#21 ·
Bought the 3" kawi semi-trash pump off e-bay in the box for $391($900 reg) shipped. Kawi is closing out on them. No more 2" available. I hope its not too much.Maybee 1/2 throttle I'll be okay. Honda 2" just water same price. Kawi much better value and pump I hope? Greg, What mulch do you use?
 
#22 ·
I think your Kawi will be fine if you throttle it down. It might be just right someday when you have that 3300 gallon Finn. :)

For slopes we use EcoFibre plus which is a wood mulch with a guar based tack that is made by CanFor products in Canada. On real steep slopes we use EcoAegis,a bonded fiber matrix by the same company.

On flat ground we use a product called "astromulch" which is recycled newspaper and it is made in Anchorage.

They are about the only thing available up here.
 
#23 ·
Thanx greg
 
#24 ·
I've been watching this thread since Corby told me about www.lawnsite.com. I'd like to make a few comments before this subject fades into oblivion.

I've seen a lot of points of view presented here. Some I agree with, some I don't, but I'd like to point out that within the hydroseeding industry, there are actually two processes.

For about the last decade, hydroseeding is pretty much been defined as the application of 1,500 pounds of mulch per acre. Since "Lawn Tek" brought up www.hydroseeding.com, I'd like to comment that Turbo Turf makes a plastic recirculation type machine that's barely capable of exceeding that.

Admittedly, there are some high-end plastic machines that are actually capable of exceeding 1,500 pounds of mulch per acre, and are even capable of shooting "wood mulch." But you aren't going to get much more than a toy for $3,995.00. It will take long time to load, and will require an incredibly soupy mixture to pump through enough hose to reach into most back yards.

I have part-time competitor with a 150 gallon Turbo Turf machine and a 150 gallon nurse tank on his trailer. About a year after he started his business, he told me it's performance had declined to the point where he could barely shoot 35 pounds of mulch in his 150 gallon machine when he does a back-yard.

I've run tests in our clay soil here in Phoenix. In dry soil, I can put about 160 to 170 gallons of water on 1,000 s'f before puddling occurs. As far as I'm concerned, that's shooting colored water.

More recently, I just happened to be driving by one day and saw this guy shooting a job. I pulled over a few houses down to watch. A kid was on the end of the hose, while my competitor was breaking-up a 40 pound bale of jet-mulch into small-pieces into a plastic tub sitting between the two tanks. I hate to admit this but I laughed my --- off because it was a bit windy and almost as much of the mulch was blowing down the street as was going into the plastic tub.

I can't imagine trying to make a living with something that takes that much effort to load. He can't possibly get very much s/f done in a day. After withnessing that, I'd have to call his equipment a Turbo-toy. This guy has a hydroseeding hobby. If he wants to have an actual business, he really needs to upgrade his equipment.

You bet I bad mouth his equipment. In 1999 I got a lot of publicity. I also got 6 new cometitors. Four of these guys had Turbo Turf Machines. But he's the only one of them that's still around. I'm convinced it's only because he honors his call-backs. But why the heck should you have to have call-backs? Know what? My call-back-ratio here in Phoenix AZ (one of the hottest, dryest places in the Country), has been less than 1 out of 100 for more almost 8 years now.

I have some advice to anyone thinking about getting into the hydroseeding business with one of these kinds of machines. Make them demo it before you buy. And if they say it will shoot wood fiber mulch, make them prove it. Don't let them arrive with the tank full. You need to watch them load it.

I can cycle my 300 gallon Finn machine every 20 minutes with 3 - 50 pound bales of wood fiber mulch. That's as much as 1,200 pounds of mulch on the ground in an 8 hour day - with a 300 gallon machine. Try that with a 300 gallon Turbo Toy - it ain't going to happen.

Doubt what I'm saying? Ask Corby. He has a Turbo Turf machine. I'm certain that he'd love to tell you how much he regrets wasting his money on something that limits his ability to make a decent living. I call these plastic machines toys, but he has a less generous description for them...

And since Corby brought it up, there are two "trade organizations" that serve the hydroseeding industry. The International Erosion Control Association, http://www.ieca.org/, kind of includes us. It's absolutely worth the trip to their annual trade show if it's within driving distance.

But the Hydro Turf Planter's Association, http://www.htpa.org is flat-out all about improving the professionalism in the Hydroseeding industry. And dues are cheap. It only costs $100 a year. If you own a hydroseeding machine, Join. If you are thinking about buying a hydroseeding machine, join before you buy one.

They even have a "public" discussion forum, http://www.htpa.org/public/index.html with a Hydro Turf Business Section where people interested in getting into our industry can ask questions of HTPA members before they join the organization.

It started in Texas, but about a decade ago, the term Hydro-Mulching came into use. It has came to represent the application of more than 1,500 pounds of mulch (usually wood fiber mulch) per 1,000 s/f.

There are a lot of us in this industry who want people to know that un-like hydroseeding, "Hydro-Mulching" works every time.

Eleven years ago, when I started, I was influenced by an Ad I saw for Sanders Hydroseeding in Santa Ana Ca. It said "good enough just isn't..." "The finest materials, properly applied, with no skimping..." That's what I wanted to do.

In my early years, I was also influenced by Mr. James Lincoln. And that was long before he invented tha Turfmaker machine, http://www.turfmaker.com/. He's been preaching "Sod Quality Results" through a thick application of "wood fiber mulch" for longer than I can even remember.

It's unfortunate that a lot of people who visit his web site think he's just "bashing the competition." I look at it a little differently. I just think he figures that if he doesn't tell the truth about those "damned plastic machines' that are sleazing the industry (attribute that to me, not him) no-one else will. At least that's what I think.

Please, don't take this as a Turfmaker endorsement. There are a lot of good "mechanically agitated machines" on the market. Aqua Mulcher, Bowie, Finn, Kincaid, Turfmaker are all good machines. EZ Lawn and Reinco also make "mechanically agitated" machines. Any of them would be good choices.

I don't own a Turfmaker. I don't even think it has a big enough engine. And I've told Mr. Lincoln that. On the other hand, I got rid of a 500 gallon Bowie because I didn't think it had a big enough engine either. The 33 hp motor on my 800 gallon bowie can pump 50 pounds of wood mulch through 300 ft of hose with as little as 80 gallons of water. But it sucked the guts out of 4 trucks in the last 10 years. That's why it's sitting in my back yard. I don't need an 800 gallon machine for the 2 to 5 residential size lawns a day that I do.

Truth is, I don't think my new 300 gallon Finn has big enough engine either. I'd rather it have a 425 gallon tank like the Turfmaker or Kincaid machines. And after 11 years getting to used to Bowie's "positive displacement pump," the Finn's "centrifical pump" definately has a "learning curve" that I don't like much either... (If I had it to do over again I'd ask Bowie to custom build a machine for me - I found out too late they would...)

But the 360 gallon "nurse tank" on the trailer gives me the ability shoot and fill at the same time. Effectively, I can get a hell of a lot more bales of mulch on the ground in a day than a guy with a much bigger machine that has to take the time to wait for his hydroseeder to fill-up after each load.

I shoot 2 to 5 residential size lawns a day. I want to be able to use the least amount of water I can get away with, to put a thick layer of slurry on the ground - as fast as I can. (The thickness of the mulch has a lot to do with the evenness of germination.) But time is money. It often comes down to how many bales of mulch you can get on the ground by the end of the day... It's not about the size of the machine, it's about how many bales of mulch you can get on the ground by the end of the day.

And by the way, I have an aversion to employees... Workmens Comp., Payroll Taxes? Teaching employees how to become your competitors? I don't need it. I'd rather have an electric hose reel... (And you'd be surprised how easy it is to talk customers into helping me keep the hoses out from under my feet...)

For many years I bought into about half of what Mr. Lincoln said. I used to use a very thick application of recycled newsprint mulch. I discovered the thickness of the mulch had a lot to do with the evenness of the germination very early on... But truthfully, I was afraid of the "clogs" that often happen with "wood" mulch, so I avoided it.

When I joined the HTPA (about a year after it was formed), those guys convinced me I was using way too much seed. When I tried wood mulch I discovered that less than half the seed I'd been using resulted in better lawns. Turns out, applications of paper mulch thicker than 2,000 pounds per acre can "smother seed."

And OK, I admit I had to cut the fitting off of the end of the hose and use a fire hydrant to blow the clog out more than once, but I learned how to work with wood mulch. I don't have those kinds of problems any more.

To be "politically correct," there are some parts of the Country where less than 1,500 pounds per acre might be acceptable. But I know people in the Pacific NorthWest - and the NorthEast who would tell you that anything less than 2,000 pounds per acre "might result in a decent lawn," but if you want a sure thing...

My normal application rate is about 3,000 pounds per acre of 70% wood / 30% paper mulch. (OK, I still like a little paper in the mulch.) Very often, I'll drop two bales of wood to one bale of paper. But I can guantee you one thing, if you want a sure thing, you'd better be using 2,000 pounds of mulch per acre or more... And you just can't do that with a plastic toy...

Rick Hardy
 
#25 ·
I wouldn't buy a jet agitated machine either, that's why we have a TurfMaker 425 and a Bowie 1100. The Bowie has a diesel engine, I sometimes wish the Turfmaker had a small diesel.

I do wish that somebody would come up with a non-corroding mechanical agitated machine. I know some manufacturers are making stainless tanks but I can show you a bunch of corroded stainless steel at the seawater treatment plant I work in.

There must be a way to make a mechanical agitated composite (some would call it plastic) machine???


We have some of the opposite problems from Rick, some of the northern regions of Alaska have permafrost underneath and if you put on more than 1000 pounds per acre you will insulate the ground and cause the seed to be too cold to germinate. I was told this drove the DOT engineers crazy until they figured out the problem.
;)
 
#26 ·
Guys got a Finn t 60. Is anybody Gov. certified? Is there such a thing? Anybody got gov specs? Gonna do a state airport.
 
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